Blizzard Goes Hardcore with Ra-Den Limited Attempts!

Written by: (Twitter @oliviadgrace - ) | February 18, 2013 1:26 pm

18 Comments

Blizzard get accused of catering to the casuals a lot, but with Throne of Thunder’s “Bonus Boss” Ra-Den, they’re going back to their hardcore roots.

Ra-Den employs a mechanic not seen for quite some years, specifically limited attempts. This hasn’t been seen since Wrath of the Lich King, where it was a wildly unpopular mechanic. Indeed, in a 2010 WoW Twitter Developer chat, they said the following:

Q. If you could go back and redo or remove some feature that were added with WoTLK, what would it be and why?

A. I think the emblem system could be less clunky.
Limited Attempts didn’t really work out.
We always had some tension about what 10 player heroic should really be.
I’m only talking new features here. There were plenty of other things I’d change about this expansion in hindsight. We’re pretty critical of our own design.

Some of the limitations, earlier ones such as Algalon, involved a limited time during which the boss is open. So, guilds would have one hour to kill the boss, and that was it. As developer Ion Hazzikostas points out in his forum posts on the topic (full posts below), this approach is not one Blizzard would like to repeat. It was intensely frustrating, and the nature of it didn’t allow for much leeway for tactical discussion and the like. If you were rushing, as most groups were, to get in as many tries as possible on a boss, tactical discussion took a back seat. Even worse was if, as Ion puts it, your Main Tank had a power outage for 20 minutes. Or what if the server went down? Either way, Blizzard recognizes that this was a bad idea, and Ra-Den will instead be limited by attempts. You get 30 tries, and you’re done for the week.

But they did like one aspect of Alagon — he was a completely “optional” boss. And that, they say, is exactly the same as Ra-Den. He’s the final boss after the Thunder King is defeated on Heroic difficulty, and even the Thunder King himself is only available on Heroic after 11/12 bosses have been killed on heroic mode on that lockout. So, they are justifying the return of limited attempts by asserting that Ra-Den is a pure “Bonus” boss.

What do you think of this? I immediately asked Scott “Sco” McMillan, Guild Master of Method, for his opinion (some strong language):

 

 


He was clearly unimpressed, but also points out the fact that the big guilds will still just throw people at the problem until it’s done. Method ran five 25-man raids to prepare for the 5.0 race, so this won’t be a huge issue. What do you think? Is this a good thing, or just more artificial gating that attempts to string out Blizzard’s content?

Blizzard Goes Hardcore with Ra-Den Limited Attempts!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1260066056 Steven Diaz

    This is perfect, it’s giving people that want an extreme challenge the chance.  If Blizzard made it easy, people would complain, it they made it hard, people would complain.  Even adding an optional boss  they’re still getting push back.  They can’t win.  I’m not the biggest fan of WoW, but at this point it just seems like no matter what they do, everyone is going to claim it’s controversial.  As for the gating, sure, we can look at it that way, or we can look at it as a bonus.  The whole idea of gating in this case, I feel, is flawed because regardless of what they add, there has to be loot.  If the boss was there without giving any loot then people would claim that it was pointless.  I just don’t see how they can win, they’re always going to piss off people.  They could start giving out gold nuggets for free and you’ll still get people complaining because it isn’t platinum.  

    It’s a good choice and even though it can be viewed as (artificially optional, meaning it really isn’t) it’s something for top tier players to really work hard for, something that’s only saved for the ultra rare top tier players.  So, congrats to blizzard, games have become much too easy these days, this is a nice refreshing add-on.

    • http://twitter.com/Luke_Malcolm Luke Malcolm

      Steven I agree with you, For guilds like Method / Blood Legion & Exodus it will give them an extra boss to kill and work on after they kill Ra-Den. It will still be apart of the race of course. 

      Copy & Pasted from MMO-Champion’s front page on Limited Attempts.

      Thanks for the ongoing discussion — the feedback is appreciated. A few brief points/responses to the general direction of the discussion:

      “This system isn’t set in stone. Our intent is to release a well-tuned encounter that doesn’t have significant bugs. If the first guilds get there, and it turns out that despite our best efforts, we’ve failed in that goal (a la Sinestra), we’ll turn off the attempt limit, and that will be that. (I mean major bugs — if there’s something small, we’ll wait until the weekly reset and fix it for everyone.) There’s no scenario in which the first guilds to get there waste their attempts trying to kill something that’s broken; we won’t let that happen.

      When I say that Ra-den is a “bonus boss” I’m not saying he’s optional. Of course I know there’s no such thing as an optional boss in progression, and people are very much going to count him as part of the progression race. But if you think back to Algalon, he actually wasn’t that complicated, or that hard. Firefighter, Freya with 3 Keepers, or Yogg-1 required you to learn and coordinate far more than Algalon. Algalon literally had three mechanics to deal with for the entire fight, and in practice most guilds killed him in around 3 hours or a couple dozen attempts. It’s just that they were tuned tightly numbers-wise, and the one-hour weekly limit turned what would have otherwise been a single night of progression into three or four weeks. Heroic Lei Shen is a harder and more complex fight than Ra-den, and I’m not going to claim otherwise. Ra-den is just different; he’s a bit of a mystery, and something we haven’t tried in a while.

      Regarding alts: To engage Heroic Lei Shen, you must have killed 11/12 bosses on Heroic in that lockout. To engage Ra-den, you must have killed Heroic Lei Shen in that lockout. I’m incredibly skeptical that anyone is going to manage that with multiple alt clears in parallel, both due to gear disparity and because doing so would mean forfeiting much of the ability to optimize raid composition for progression on the hardest fights.

      Finally, we’ll see what we can do to minimize the quality-of-life issues here. I can’t promise this will be doable until we’ve implemented it, but we’ll try to make sure that very short attempts don’t count (accidental bodypulls and such), and that we make an exception to the usual rules and reset shaman Reincarnation at the start of each Ra-den pull.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/inkogni.alex Inkogni Alex

    what i think is the following > its a fail to have it as the last boss
    if you feel like it to be a bonus boss, don’t put him at the end of everything. Put him at mid of instance ( or something ) with the ability to skip him ( hes sleeping ) without agroing the boss.
    Here is a decent idea, give him hes own instance where he drops NO LOOT or gear with NO STATS. Its there just for the hardcore players to bash there heads for some time.
    Some item might be BIS for some one and then its not an optional boss anymore.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Maybe if this was the final tier of raiding during Mists, I would agree.  But, with this occurring during the second tier, so I’m not so bothered.

      Now if this was the final raid tier and Blizzard tacked on a bonus boss after kill the final boss of the expansion, yeah, I would be a bit annoyed. 

      With that said, I am hoping we get bonus raid content, for when we are done with saving or destroying (just not trusting the Black Prince) Pandaria.   

      • http://www.facebook.com/inkogni.alex Inkogni Alex

        just destroy everything, once its dead you have less mess to deal with.
        AND NO SIDE QUESTS

  • http://www.facebook.com/jason.jenkins.73 Jason Jenkins

    Limit it all you want for the hardcores but restricting it so only hardcore people can experience i,t no dont like it one little bit.  didn’t like it in lich king dont like it now.

  • http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

    Again – Blizzard trying to drag out the content longer.  Its called gating.  Gives them the chance to take 8 month rest until they do next bit.

  • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

    Not sure why this is coming up again. During Lich King, you had separate lockouts for 10 and 25 teams with two different tiers of gear. 

    Guess with the introduction of Thunderforged gear, Blizzard want to introduce a mechanic to discourage guilds from forcing the bonus boss without enough Thunderforged gear. 

  • http://twitter.com/LusitanGaming Lusitan Gaming

    Limiting tries is not hardcore, its just another form of blizz trying to get their content to last longer just like the previous tier gating. 

    When you know the boss is just not good enough, you try everything to make it last

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=754168227 Len Hobbel

    Hehehe  so many wow players now just dont know hardcore….Hardcore wow was vanilla…and even then it wasnt that hard. Trying raiding when your enemies can BUFF and HEAL your raid boss on you and KILL you…..YEP….WOW has never been to hard….it was FUN…but hard,,,,just barely

    • http://twitter.com/izumicookie Izumi

      Vanilla bosses were a push over compared to bosses now. Even Burning Crusade raids were harder than Vanilla raids. Vanilla was only hard in the sense that players were new, hadn’t figured out the game yet and weren’t as good as players are today.

  • http://twitter.com/cipero Matt Cipriano

    I would think the hardcore players would embrace the challenge of limited attempts. I wouldn’t really call this gating..maybe to hardcore players? But for all of those saying they are just gating content I am comfortably certain that guilds like method and paragon put more attempts on a boss in a single night than a lot of normal guilds run in a months time.

    • Kevyne_Shandris

      Yet we get into this problem of Paragon and Method aren’t your typical raid guilds. They’re sponsored guilds who treat the raid as a job, as they’re paid to do it.

      The other 20,000 guilds or such are trying to get through normal, with even less players wanting to raid (which takes fixed schedules and logistics that gamers today aren’t interest in…they’re into XBox and LoL style gameplay).

      Gone are the days of 100hr SP games to pace players. They want to burn through the content as fast as Paragon and Method does it…2 weeks tops.

  • http://www.facebook.com/miljan.stanojevic.503 Miljan Stanojevic

    do I care about this…let me see, hmmm nope…nothing!

  • http://twitter.com/Summer_Sal They Call Me Sal

    I can see this effecting the “race” and nothing else. 30 attempts in a week kind of seems like a normal number to me… but I guess that shows how hard core I am… 

  • http://twitter.com/justQQing Brian Day

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz  how ever you look at it most people playing wow are sheep if one dose it they all do it………..  there is  no such word as OPTIONAL in wow

  • http://twitter.com/izumicookie Izumi

    I don’t see how “limited attempts” is hardcore. Sure it limits your attempts but all that does is make you revise your stratedies and attempts out better bringing it all down to a crawl and showing which guild has the better strategists. “Hardcore” raiding is what it is like right now, continuously throwing yourself at a boss for hours upon hours every day of the week like it is a job in order to complete it first. The gating isn’t going to change this because most word first chasing Heroic Mode guilds that have multiple alts and teams (as they do) that they can throw at it. Good Heroic Mode guilds are going to get it fast regardless of the gating too. If the limited attempts were account wide then it would truely be “hardcore”.

    The gating is a classic masked technique to extend the life of the raid. Blizzard is probably doing it because they need more time for the next raid patch and don’t want players blowing through it too fast like world first Heroic Mode guilds do and also probably want to force heroic raiders to be out in the world doing something else which the gating in its current form wont be very effective at doing.

  • Kevyne_Shandris

    This is classic Blizzard: Claim they don’t like how XYZ was done and won’t return to it again…but return to it again later.

    Ghostcrawler said the same about rep grinding and how/why it even exists (gating) and they didn’t want to go there in MoP with it…but sure enough we got TBC style rep grinding in MoP.

    So when Blizzard claims they don’t like XYZ, expect XYZ to be back again.

    And all of this is inmaterial on realms that won’t even see 11/12 heroic before 5.3. It’s just more content that players are paying for they’ll never see.

    Will Blizzard put a similar barrier to entry on fishing next?  They’re making tradeskills so pointless, yet want raiding to be so exclusive. Raiders can double dip, but those who can’t raid due to logistics or their realm can’t even get 10 consistent players together to raid each week, hells bells.

    Blizzard is spreading it w-a-y too thin. Trying to please the extremes no one is happy. From the tradeskills now being so trivial why does it exist; to millions paying for content to please 10%, content they’ll never see (or want to see out of frustration of 50+ raid runs and your gear doesn’t drop because it’s low drop rates programmed by Blizzard).

    Time = money. If the time isn’t worth it, the money goes with it.

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