Gear vs. Skill: How Will Gamers React To Guild Wars 2 Skillful Progression?

Written by: (Twitter @richieprocopio - ) | July 9, 2012 6:00 pm

289 Comments

As I obsessively count down the days until the August 28 release of Guild Wars 2, I do wonder, how will gamers coming from other MMOs perceive it?  The innovations that ArenaNet have poured into their highly anticipated sequel are legion.  While many aspects of the game will be familiar to MMO fans, there are quite a few departures as well.  One of the biggest alterations is that Guild Wars 2 is a skill-based game, while most other MMORPGs offer a gear-based progression system.  The question is:  Will this design choice be a breath of fresh air or a source of confusion and frustration?

Defining Gear and Skill

In a gear-based MMO, such as World of Warcraft or Star Wars: The Old Republic, achieving the maximum level is the beginning of your journey.  At that point, it’s time to jump on that gear treadmill and claw your way to a decent power level.  Players are led down a progression path which includes repeating dungeons and raids of varying party sizes and difficulty levels, which grants you statistically better gear for completing them.  It works the same on the PvP side, with players competing in matches to earn various currencies to purchase yet more powerful gear.  Not to mislead you—skill still plays a major factor in these games.  In fact, being extremely skillful can compensate for lower gear levels, but it’s usually unwise to ignore your character’s gear progression if you want to experience the most challenging content.  MMO gamers are used to this system.  It’s expected and comfortable.  So what will happen as the masses discover that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t work like this?  star wars the old republic mmorpg mmorpg guild wars 2 mmorpg     Brawn Vs Brains

Outside of MMOs, gamers are very familiar with skill-based games.  Shooters, for example, frequently offer gamers a level playing field to test their expertise.  Fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, don’t require you to spend dozens of hours working to unlock a more powerful set of moves.  Imagine having to play twenty matches as Ryu in Street Fighter before being able to sling a single hadouken!  In these titles, your skill is the primary determinant of your success.  It will work the same in Guild Wars 2.

ArenaNet’s Skillful Approach to Guild Wars 2

It’s easy to see the skill-based framework when you look at how the structured PvP is designed in Guild Wars 2.  After a new character completes the instanced introductory area, they have the option to teleport to the Mists.  The Mists is a PvP staging area, which is the perfect place to experiment with different builds and equipment configurations before stepping into world vs. world or a structured PvP match.  Here characters are bumped up to level 80 with all trait points and skills unlocked.  They are also given a set of max-level PvP gear and access to vendors with free weapons, runes and sigils.  As you can see, players will be on an even playing field (in regards to gear power) from their very first PvP match.

Obviously, players that choose horrible skills or are clueless about how to set up their traits and equipment will be at a severe disadvantage.  Skill is comprised of more than just manual dexterity.  Knowledge of your profession and build, your strategy for the various maps, and coordination with your teammates are all facets of being skillful.  But the power of your gear will not hold you back.  Your progression is dictated by your personal improvement, not by obtaining a new helmet that grants you +30 to Pwnage.

The PVE progression will work similarly.  As you level up, you’ll find increasingly powerful gear, but once you hit the maximum level of 80, your statistics will hit a plateau.  While we haven’t been able to test any level 80 PVE content ourselves, Lead Content Designer Colin Johanson, has stated: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”  The rewards you receive for tackling dungeons, dynamic events, and crafting will be unique skins for your weapons and armor.  So you can work towards looking more bad-ass than everyone else, but your actual prowess in battle is largely dependent on you.

No Gear? Why Play?

Players of the original Guild Wars will be familiar with this set up, as achieving the max level of 20 and obtaining the best armor can be accomplished by the savvy in a matter of hours.  MMO veterans, who are used to games like Rift and WoW, might be asking themselves, “What’s the point in continuing to play once I hit max level, if it’s easy to get the best gear?”  The topic of incentive is large enough for its own article, but the short answer is: Instead of needing to farm gear in order to the play the game, Guild Wars 2 allows you to simply play the game. Completing the dungeons, working on crafting, experiencing the story, engaging in World vs. World, competing in PvP tournaments and many other activities will all provide players incentive without requiring your gear to be measure against a “you must be this tall to ride” sign.  I’ll admit that I had a hard time wrapping my brain around this concept when I first started reading about it.  Many MMO gamers will also need to adjust their mindset to understand this paradigm shift.

Gear vs. Skill: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

star wars the old republic mmorpg mmorpg guild wars 2 mmorpg     Brawn Vs BrainsPvP in gear-based games usually have a tough barrier of entry for new players.  A fresh level 50 character in Star Wars: The Old Republic has very limited access to expertise, which is a critical statistic for PvP.  This creates a situation where newbies have to endure a period of getting slaughtered as they work on improving their gear.  The most skilled and dedicated players will have the most powerful statistics and the performance gap between these players and a neophyte is colossal.  Game developers can counter this with several strategies, but it’s a challenge to figure out how to entice new players to join PvP and have a rewarding experience from the start.

Gear-based PvE has similar issues requiring fresh-to-max-level players to gear up before tackling the highest difficulty content the game has to offer.  One does not simply walk into the heroic Madness of Deathwing encounter minutes after hitting level 85 in World of Warcraft.  Consequently, hardcore guilds often struggle to find new raid members who have the appropriate gear level for the content they are trying to defeat.  Once again, there are strategies the developers can use to lessen the impact of a gear-based system, but they need to be constantly aware of these undesirable byproducts.

As most people know, Guild Wars 2 will not have a subscription fee.  ArenaNet will, instead, support the game through microtransactions.  The skill-based nature of the game allows them more freedom in the items they can sell in the in-game store without upsetting balance.  Karma boosts, for example, aren’t game-breaking in Guild Wars 2, because the progression is based on player skill.  However, selling currency boosters in a gear-based game would create a situation where players would feel compelled to buy those boosters if they wanted to remain competitive.

It may sound as if skill-based MMOs are all puppies and flowers with no drawbacks at all, but this is far from the truth.  In fact, I’m concerned that some of star wars the old republic mmorpg mmorpg guild wars 2 mmorpg     Brawn Vs Brainsmy friends and family may struggle in Guild Wars 2.  Level 80 players exploring Tyria can’t compensate for a lack of skill by obtaining more powerful gear.  Before you say, “Well, duh. Learn to play, noob!”, realize there are many players out there that have a skill ceiling that is lower than your average gamer.  It may be easy on a forum or in an internet space to discount those players, but it’s a different story when you’re talking about real people you want to play with.  One of my close friends gets extreme motion sickness when he plays certain games.  In MMOs, using the mouse to pan the camera triggers his condition, so he uses his keyboard for both movement and activating skills.  He’s defter at playing like this than most people I’ve seen, but his performance might suffer with the action-oriented combat of Guild Wars 2.  My dad loves MMOs.  He was a dedicated raider and one of our main tanks for 6 years in World of Warcraft.  The fact is, however, that he’s 65 years old and his reflexes aren’t as fast as they used to be.  I created a video that discussed the same topic as this article (check it out below) and I received many messages in reaction to it from gamers who had all sorts of physical limitations that impacted their skill ceilings.  So this concern is more widespread than we may realize.  Gear-based MMOs are very friendly to these players because they allow them to surpass their own personal power limit with the acquisition of shiny loot.  If they can’t defeat a challenging boss now, they can continue practicing knowing that eventually their gear may give them the boost they need to defeat it.  In a skill-based system all you can do is keep trying until you overcome the obstacle or give up.

The good news is Guild Wars 2 is not designed with a structured raiding environment where gamers converge for countless hours spanning several weeks in an attempt at defeating a single boss encounter.  Players with lower skill levels aren’t going to be holding back an entire raiding team’s progression.  Large-scale dynamic events, world vs. world, crafting and personal story can be enjoyed by everyone equally.  Structured PvP and the explorable mode dungeons may prove to be more prohibitive, but since they don’t yield more powerful loot for completing them, gamers won’t be hindered from accessing other areas of the game if they aren’t successful.

Some gamers simply won’t like the skill-based approach to Guild Wars 2.  To some, the allure of seeking new items is not strong enough if they don’t include a power increase with them.  Others may be frustrated by the difficulty rather than inspired to rise to the challenge.  For me, personally, after playing gear-based MMOs for over a decade now, I’m ready for something different.  It’s not that I didn’t enjoy my time in those worlds; in fact, they are some of my best gaming moments.  But I feel that I’ve seen what that approach has to offer and I’m curious as to where my adventures in Tyria will lead me.

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This article was inspired by a video I made on the same topic.  It’s embedded below if you want to hear more of my thoughts on this topic:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMbeLMdEgc

Gear vs. Skill: How Will Gamers React To Guild Wars 2 Skillful Progression?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tj-Vossos/647768691 Tj Vossos

    this is why i love guild wars 2

  • http://www.facebook.com/stradus.woods Stradus Woods

    This is one of many thing I like about GW2

  • XMP_Data_Guru

    I think alot of  your “hardcore” will not be able to make the change.  GW2 isnt about time=power. You will have to play skillful not rely on gear and add on’s.  This will be a great boon for the casual as in not alot of time to play.  The instances are not super long and no gear treadmill to play. 

    Also no way to have a argument over gear.  One of the biggest controls used by hardcore raiding guilds is the control of loot.  Now you dont need 20 people to have fun… wont need tons of hours grinding gear (which is controlled by a guild leader).  You want to instance raid?  Get 4 other people you know and do it.  No crap need a tank.. or a healer… No do you have X gear.. crap well we need to run Y thru G instance a ton of times to get them geared up.

    I think GW2 will suck the good raiders and most of the casual’s from WOW but the gear grinding “hardcore” raiders do not have the skills or the want to learn to play a game with no trinity AND no gear to LEAN on to pull them thru.

    To me GW2 is 2.0 of MMO’s.  They have made a game that is fun for the majority of the players IE people who play to have fun and dont have 30+ hours a week to put into a game to see all of its content.  Multiple studies have been done and all of them say max % of “hardcores” is always around 10% of the total player base.  And ArenaNet is the first company to figure out that making a fun game for casuals that is still challenging is where the next big MMO will make its money.

    This game has it all wrapped up in one nice fun package!

    • totaltitan

      Lol… you need to learn what skill is — and isn’t — before you speak of it.

      • Jay

         How about you give your definition of skill instead of just ridiculing his…

    • http://twitter.com/QuietNine Quiet

      @xmp, your assertion that hardcore players lack skill is pretty bogus. in general, HM geared raiders running dragon soul would still die on regular if they stood in fire and ignored mechanics. additionally, they only got the HM gear by rising to a more difficult challenge. while baddies with good gear definitely exist and sit in stormwind talking crap to casuals, the average hardcore player is something ahead of casuals.

      I would also disagree that GW2 is the first MMO to really cater to casuals. as a casual raider myself (DS complete on normal before buff came out, but no heroic modes), WoW’s LFR system is the epitome of catering to casuals, arguably at a detriment to their own game (it exposes raiders to the same tier twice as often per week, increasing boredom and burnout). Rifts solution was much better than WoW’s, in Rift they added 1-2man dungeons, allowing players to see content without making it into the horrible loot/gameplay experience that is LFR.

      that said, im just as excited as you to get into a game where i can show up and play, knowing that i can take a night or a month off and come back to find im still as geared as i need to be to enjoy the endgame.

      • XMP_Data_Guru

        Look if you have skill then your part of that small % of raiders who do.  

        But looks like you like this game for the same reasons as me.  Time management

        Every MMO I have played I got sucked into a raiding guild because they play with me one time and want me to raid with them.  But I always tell them I cant play by their schedule’s but they never listen.  They say np come and play.  And ends bad because they are mad a month later when I am not playing every time they email me.

        And believe me what little time I played with the “hardcore” raiders…. 3/4 of them just plain suck and are carried by the few with skills.  And with 20 people in a raid that is easy to do.  With 5 people.. you better be good or everyone around you will know fast.  That is why I can bet your average “hardcore” raider wont be able to play Gw2.

        Add in PVP/WvW combat that they cant just lean on op gear while they roll their face all over the keyboard and win.
        .
         

  • http://www.facebook.com/rodriguezcorreamiguel Miguel Rodriguez

    I love the fact that lvl 80 doesnt mean you beat the game, it means your starting it. Anyone who played GW1 knows exactly what i mean. Also skill based progression is so fun you cant just afk and push one button over and over again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/KenpoJuJitsu3 James Hawkins III

    And that’s one of the reasons I want to play GW2. I prefer skill based games and am not a fan of gear treadmills. Been there, done that, don’t want to do it again.

  • XMP_Data_Guru

    WOW glad to see so many people loving this.  Just waiting for the Trolls to come out lol.

  • http://profiles.google.com/ichoate Imran Choate

    TY Arenanet…for answering my major gripe in games……Gear treadmill!!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FC2G2VNF5LPYNYLJ5A5UPARPRU David

    didn’t mention RTS/TBS games with the FPS/Fighting for skill-based games

    sad

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

    Can one of you die hards explain to me the reason for including a “dodge” button in a target system game? Or how an npc running diagonally can avoid my missiles when I can’t alter my aim to compensate?

    • http://twitter.com/Mantose Leo P

      Many attacks if not all attacks can be triggered at anytime no target required. Many attacks are AoE …  dodge is very useful.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

        I don’t see how my attack being triggered at anytime has anything to do with a targeted, highlighted, centaur running across my screen, and my each of my thrown axes whiffing it.

        • Zebadis

          Just because you have someone targeted, doesn’t mean you’ll hit them. Projectiles, melee attacks and AoE can all be avoided.

        • Jay

           Go outside… Throw an axe… Did it curve mid-air or did it go where you threw it?

          If you want homing axes, you should go play WOW.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Phil-Thompson/1646123599 Phil Thompson

       You don’t have to target people to hit them.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

        Wait, what? So I was supposed to untarget the mob, to be able to “aim”? I am being completely serious. When I played the beta, early game, I could no hit any centaurs running across my screen. I would target the mob, and hit the skill button, and the axes would be throw at where the mob was at the time of attack, but because it was running, they would just wiff. I was not out of range. Was the answer to untarget the mob and just throw my axes ahead of it?

        • Old Ben

          I think the answer is that you need to actually play the game before posting your usual nonsense under a new name…

        • Jado Cast

          Troll alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/Whatshisnehm Peter Frost

       If you’re talking about the dodge mechanic in Guild Wars 2, during the dodging motion you are invulnerable to damage (or so I’ve read).  And don’t forget a natural in-built chance to dodge.

    • Oskiee

      To add to leo’s comment, Also some mobs hit like a truck, but the dodge allows you to get out of the way of those attacks. It adds a level to the game play. Most of the time, if you dont dodge and just stand there and get smacked on, you will die. Unlike in other MMO’s.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

        In which MMO can someone just stand there any not die when an attack is incoming?

        • Oskiee

          What i mean is… Say in WoW, even at level 1, you stand there and auto attack and the mob hits you back, you exchange blows until the mob is dead. At higher levels, its the same thing, you hit it, it hits you. 

          GW2 differs in that most monsters can 2 or 3 shot you… easily. At at level one. Some of the skill and learning curve of the game is going to come from learning when to dodge attacks, cause when you get hit, it sucks. 

          For example, in Queensdale, there were these monsters that had a mace, and when i got hit by said mace (cause i wasted my dodge, and the bar wasnt full enough for me to dodge again) i was knocked down, and lost half my health. 

          Edit: Also i see your also talking about targetting. The targeting in the game has me a little confused, it sometimes seems that its not a true targeting system where you target something and your abilities all hit that target. It seems more that attacks of any kind are directional. So you have to “aim” at what you want to hit.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

            I’ve always played a range class in the many many MMO’s I’ve played through the years. I have never had the ability to stand there and take hits.

            When I played Beta last month, this game felt like it was YEARS away from being finished. No polish at all. Targetting system is broken. Dodge is questionable.

          • Oskiee

            I thought the opposite. I thought the game was extremly polished and i was wondering why the game wasnt released yet. 

            To each his own. Im excited for the game and i cant wait to play it again. 

          • Old Ben

            > I’ve always played a range class in the many many
            > MMO’s I’ve played through the years. I have never
            > had the ability to stand there and take hits.

            Really? So let’s say you’re a mage in WoW, fighting another mage. How do you avoid his fireballs / frost bolts / arcane blasts? Is there any point in moving? Will that make him miss?

            You must troll harder.

    • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

      One of the main reasons it’s implemented is to give the player more survive-ability. Since there are no traditional tanks soaking up the damage or healers keeping your life full, you are a lot more self reliant. So dodging is another form of self damage mitigation.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/IALDKXCWDRFDRDZZXVCDZKRZII Frankie

       The dodge comes into play with AoE abilities, circular, line, and or cone. A lot of the abilities in GW2 are like that with the exception of the attack in the 1 slot. I guess you can say that dodge is more of a PvP oriented ability since most NPC’s in PvE are stationary but some of there have abilities that allow them to dodge attacks for a certain space of time.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Kurodius Benjamin Hughes

      The doge button works not only as a means to create distance, but also essentially makes you immune until you are no longer dodging. You can have 10 rangers targeting you and spamming abilities, but nothing can hit you while you are dodging. Missiles work like in normal mmos where they lock on the target and they can’t escape getting hit without using the actual dodge function; however, if another enemy runs in front of a missile’s path, that enemy will be hit instead of the intended target.

      • Old Ben

        > Missiles work like in normal mmos where they lock on the
        > target and they can’t escape getting hit 

        Not really. At least not NPC-fired missiles. If you move in a zig-zag pattern they’ll keep “over-estimating” your trajectory and firing to the sides while you close in on them.

        In PvP things get a bit more complicated because (due to lag), different players can be seeing different things, and lag compensation code kicks in. So sometimes you will get hit even though the shot seems to miss, or vice-versa (anyone used to games like Counter-Strike or Team Fortress knows how annoying this can be, but it’s inevitable due to latency, and even lag compensation code can’t correct for it 100% of the times).

    • Old Ben

      > Can one of you die hards explain to me the reason for including
      > a “dodge” button in a target system game?

      Not sure what you mean (but I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you mean, either). Dodge allows you to avoid any melee attacks that aren’t instant-cast (ex., enemy lifts hammer above his head, you dodge, he hits the ground where you had been standing) and also allows you to move out of AoE (ex., rain of fire) quickly. 

      > Or how an npc running diagonally can avoid my missiles
      > when I can’t alter my aim to compensate?

      They can’t, and you wouldn’t have been able to compensate. As long as the NPC moves in a straight line at a constant speed, you’ll hit him. Doesn’t matter if it’s “diagonal” or not (it’s always going to be “diagonal” relative to something). If the NPC changes direction or speed during the flight of the projectile, you’ll miss, but you wouldn’t have been able to “compensate” anyway (at most you could have tried to _guess_ where he was going, but you can still do that and use ground-targeted abilities).

      In fact, you can turn auto-target off completely and just shoot in the direction that the camera is facing, if that’s what you want. 

      P.S. – Tired of TSW already?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3LEA4N6HI6CWVTQ6PUFQIF6O4U Waffles

      You are immune to all effects while dodging, so any incoming attacks will miss. As for the “running diagonally” thing, I have played in both beta weekend events and I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this, as it was never an issue. There is still some missile homing, just not 100% as in WoW or similar MMO’s. I played Elementalist up to 22 and never had any issue with “aiming”. Just play smart and aiming is no problem at all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Phil-Thompson/1646123599 Phil Thompson

    When you say MMO veterans,don’t follow it with Rift and WoW.

    Games that MMO veterans played UO,EQ,AC,DAoC.

    • koryl

      right, MMO “veterans” played (speaking of my team of old guys..) Everquest, DAoC(best one ever), then tried the WoW beta test, thought it would be fine, and were deceived.. then played GW, mostly for the pvp things like GvG, and to at least fight the environement in decent graphics, and cause the average age of players was over 14 y/o(got to admit wow had once an older public, thought i never liked it), Then so called heroes ruined the fun in GW1… and we are now waiting… Wow, Rift, are you kidding???? think it’s enough to make us forget Dark Age of Camelot?

  • http://www.facebook.com/mbradleyh Michael Bradley Humphrey

    I’ve played the original guild wars for years now.  I promise that skill vs gear works very well.  Unless you’re a ganker (think aion) you’ll pprobably enjoy this alternative.  The goal is strategy, and what skills work best together.  There are very rarely a few list of macros that dominate due to effectiveness (think rogue dps in rift.)  Instead of mindlessly farming and fighting over who needed THAT weapon the most, players spend time playing through areas to determine how many different ways they can put skill chains together.  It’s a bit unnerving at first, but don’t pass this oppurtunity up if you’ve done Greenscales blight fourty times, and have no relics to show for it.

  • Christopher k

    Another thing arena wanted to have is good gear being available to everyone but gear with more extreme stats should be harder to gain. 

    So a chestplate that spreads its points on 5 different stats will not take a too much to get but the piece of armor that adds all its points to your uber haxxor precision-crit thief will take more skill to get.

  • German Lopez

    I think this will work for a rather large “niche” of sorts. Probably about one million or so. But I really doubt it will work for the typical MMORPG player that’s used to and probably prefers vertical progression in games like World of Warcraft, SWTOR, and Rift.

    Personally, as someone who is a multi-gladiator in WOW, I’m looking forward to it. I’ve never liked gear differences in PvP.

    • Jay

       I’d say 5 million or so active players sustained… Without a subscription fee, people will be more open minded with the learning curve. Games like SWTOR or TSW really have something to prove, because they want you to keep on paying. GW2 is more like LOL in that at first it may be a little intimidating, but you’re in no rush, so people can learn at their own pace.

      GW2 has a lot to offer, to a lot of different types of gamers…

  • totaltitan

    Look, I’m a GW2 fan… but you’re looking at things through a 1-sided mirror.

    First…. Skill is acquired and comes in many forms – so, we need to drop the idea that somehow that it’s more important in Guild Wars 2. Maybe a specific kind of skill, such as “twitch”. But gamers good at twitch skill are likely less adept at other skills, such as tactical skills – required in other MMOs. GW2 takes no more skill than any other game.

    Second…. You talk about grinds. Well, they’ll be in GW2 also. Repeat dungeons? Yup. Repeat dynamic events? You bet. You’ll be chasing all of the same things, except without the same importance on stats (although they will be more important here than in GW1)

    The bottom line is that if you’re having fun, then it isn’t a grind – no matter what the game. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

       As far as skill goes, I don’t think you can define skill as just one thing.  Saying someone is “skillful” in a game is a combination of twitch reflexes, strategy, knowledge of player/enemy target mechanics, and gear.  In just about every other MMO, gear is a huge component of skill because of how gear scaling works.  Now, that’s not to say that someone with little to no gear who exceeds in the other 3 areas can’t do well, but they’re put at a severe disadvantage because of stat scaling and item level bloat.  GW2 is just trying to take that part of the equation out and try to focus more on the other 3 aspects of “skillful gameplay”. 

      Time will tell how customers react to this move.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

        I dunno, the point in gear-based MMOs is that the most skillful beat the boss in pretty awful gear (comparatively). The top guilds in the world in WoW are basically killing the world-first heroic modes with gear from the previous tier. And I don’t see how you can say that players who killed H-Ragnaros, H-Lich King, H-Madness (all pre-nerf at least) aren’t skillful but rather just good at grinding. Grinding relieves some of the pressure, but at some point there is a high skill output needed, most often in WoW involving performing your role while moving, as much of the game requires you to stand still.

        In fact, I bet if GW2 required quite a few abilities to involve you standing still, it would involve a lot more skill, because it would play on the tension of “perform your duties” vs “avoid damage” and precision decision making would actually be required.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

          I think you’ve gone 180° on your logic there.  Yes, the top guilds are doing things before everyone else in a GEAR-BASED MMO without gear because they ARE SKILLFUL.  Meanwhile, the other 80% of players will have to continually farm the same raids over and over to make up for a lack of skill and eventually “outgear” the content.?  That’s why a GEAR MODEL like GW2 has wouldn’t work in WoW because if all gear has the same stats, only a small percentage of people would be able to progress in raids in WoW.  It’s why stereotypical “raiding” will probably never work within GW2.

          It’s hard to wrap your brain around just what will people do in a game that has no raiding after you hit max level.  I’ve played WoW since it launched (quit shortly after Cata came out) and I’m still not sure what besides pvp there will be to do once you hit max level… but I’m coming into it with an open mind.  Just the first leveling area was a fairly different experience for me trying to figure out new mechanics/questing/professions/lore/geography… there’s a lot to see and I’m in no hurry to rush through it.

          • Old Ben

            > I’m still not sure what besides pvp there will be
            > to do once you hit max level

            All the same things that were there before you hit max level. If your only reason for playing was seeing a couple of numbers increase, then you wasted $60.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

            I get there will be exploring, crafting, cosmetic gear hunting.  The world is only so big to explore, there are only so many recipes, and it’s hard to hunt down a specific style of helmet when there’s no wardrobe preview feature in game. 

            I’ll be fine with just pvp… that’s what I did in SWTOR for the last 4-5 months, and if it was free to play right now I’d probably still be doing pvp.  Like has been stated by others,  I think people that are used to the raiding endgame model will cry out the game is a huge failure when they hit max level… even though they will have received so much more playable content than any $60 console game could offer.

          • Old Ben

            > I think people that are used to the raiding
            > endgame model will cry out the game is
            > a huge failure when they hit max level

            At max level, they will have access to (still challenging versions of) all the dungeons and raids from all previous levels (plus the ones designed for max level). 

            Can you imagine how less boring WoW would be if there was a max-level version of _every_ dungeon and raid instance in the game?

        • Odeezee

          ***I dunno, the point in gear-based MMOs is that the most skillful beat the boss in pretty awful gear (comparatively). The top guilds in the world in WoW are basically killing the world-first heroic modes with gear from the previous tier. And I don’t see how you can say that players who killed H-Ragnaros, H-Lich King, H-Madness (all pre-nerf at least) aren’t skillful but rather just good at grinding. Grinding relieves some of the pressure, but at some point there is a high skill output needed, most often in WoW involving performing your role while moving, as much of the game requires you to stand still.***

          problem is the larger the group the less individual skill is required and the more skill in coordinating a group is needed. this is even worse in games with the trinity as even fewer people need to be skilled (tanks and healers) at performing their task in order to beat the encounter.
          the issue with your skill argument in WoW is that you are talking about max 1000 players out of 10 million that epitomize skill > gear in WoW (and even then it is only for the “current” tier of content and only while it is still new) yet the majority of players just wait for more gear to compensate and just wait for a guide for the encounter. the reason for this is because gear reduces the need for skill and with an ever increasing vertical progression in gear there is always going to be a reduction in the required level of skill for the current tier and even more so for lower level tiers with every new piece of gear acquired.

          ***In fact, I bet if GW2 required quite a few abilities to involve you standing still, it would involve a lot more skill, because it would play on the tension of “perform your duties” vs “avoid damage” and precision decision making would actually be required.***

          you cannot extrapolate that because you are using a standard that works for a static based trinity combat system and applying it to an actiony non-trinity based combat system and assuming that the mechanics that govern them are the same.

          but just so you know channeled skills in GW2 like the Warrior “Hundred Blades” skill is channeled and roots you for the cast, but as with other channeled skills you can cancel it at anytime (though you interrupt the skill and place it on cd). positional combat is also much more prevalent in GW2 as combat places greater emphasis on movement, timing and tactical advantage e.g. changing direction after a projectile has been fired at you will make it miss, timing a dodge at the right moment to avoid a devastating attack, and going to higher ground to gain extra damage on projectiles due to “gravity” against your enemies.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

          All good points. I wasn’t ever arguing that people “outgearing” the content in WoW were somehow skillful, I was just saying that you cannot argue that cutting edge raiders in WoW are not skillful because of the gear grind.

          The problem GW2 encounters (imo) is they can’t promote, like you said, a bleeding edge progression skill-requirement in their end-game content, due to a number of factors which you both mentioned. Because then the 0.5% would be the only ones who’d ever see it, much like the world’s best raiders who defeat heroic raids in the previous tier of gear. If WoW had no gear progression and didn’t progressively nerf content, that wouldn’t be a viable business model (as much as us top raiders might like it), and it wouldn’t be a viable business model for GW2 if only bleeding edge skilled players could down explorable dungeons, coordinating chains and stuns and interrupts in precision fashion. I played explorable mode Catacombs this past BWE, and didn’t find it difficult. At all. Certainly not compared to H-Spine of Deathwing pre-nerf. I played it with fellow heroic raiders from WoW, with whom I have good coordination and rapport, but it offered no challenge, skill-wise. There’s a lot more to skill than dodging and moving out of fire.

    • Old Ben

      A “grind” isn’t just something you repeat. It’s something unpleasant that you repeat because you want the reward at the end (i.e., basically like an unpleasant job).

      Some people read a lot of murder mysteries. Some people do a lot of trekking. They do it because they enjoy the actual act of doing those things, not because it’s a required step to get something else. They could just as easily jump to the last page to see “who dun it” or drive a car to the top of the hill to enjoy the same view with minimal effort.

      By not separating gameplay into “grind” and “reward”, Arena Net is committing itself to making the actual gameplay fun. A concept that most MMO designers (and players) seem to have some difficulty understanding. People will repeat dungeons and events because they actually enjoy playing through them, not because they need some item from there (be it for “power” or “aesthetic” reasons). If you want to “chase all the same things”, that’s your choice. I don’t intend to chase anything.

      It’s good to have an end to journey toward, but it is the journey that matters, in the end.

      P.S. – All my mirrors are 1-sided and I can’t see a damn thing through them.

  • CCLemon77

    No video?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3JO75BNS43WDETCNCO7F7XS6Q4 jo

    we know how Sharuko will react.

    • Old Ben

      Just ask “Tony”…

  • Max Mustermann

    Happy to see that other people also know that there are physical things that can stop a player from achieving a lot of skill. I for myself for example have (though little) problems in coordinating my body, and especially linking my movement to what i actually see. And on top of that, i also have problems with “seeing”. I don’t mean the usual thing that is solved by glasses. It’s rather in my brain. I have a lil bit of a problem making out what is actually shown on the screen right now, especially when there are many things, or moving things. Though these problems are only small, they are there. I could still aquire skill, but i could never be a real Pro Gamer this way. And i feel bad for the ones that have really huge problems.

  • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

    I love all those different systems.

    WoW Gear: Love the planning, crafting, gameplay and cooperation necessary to gear up a character.  Love the skill necessary to squeeze every last bit of heals or dps from the build and gear.  All my characters support each other with gems, enchants, glyphs and crafting.  Working hard on my plans for Mist of Pandaria, determining which character to level first, which profession to give priority.  Making sure my raiders are staying together and having fun.   

    SWTOR level 10-49:  Really enjoyed getting that perfect iconic Star Wars gear look.  Really pleased with upgrading your character through mods and crystals.  But, level 50 was and still is a mess.

    GW2: Love the races, professions and combat with GW2.  WvW will keep me playing for a long time.  I do hope Arenanet introduces some type of ladder system for sPVP, allowing players of similar skill level to complete.  sPvP is very jarring to the new player and doesn’t seem to have any alternative.  Long term it may be the haven for the hardcore player.

    Still unsure about higher level PVE content.  Once the highly skilled, type A personalities finish the higher level content, not sure if you can get them to go back.  Concerned there is going to be a frustrating wall, where skill and finding players meet.   

    Richie, that’s a really good article, GamebreakerTV needs to put your name on the article. 

    • St_Draco

      “Still unsure about higher level PVE content.  Once the highly skilled, type A personalities finish the higher level content, not sure if you can get them to go back.  Concerned there is going to be a frustrating wall, where skill and finding players meet.”
      Here’s the thing with that statement, its true of all MMOs.  Once a guild has a raid instance on farm, you are hard pressed to find any of them in game. Once you get past the initial progression stage, how often do you think those top tier players stick around and play? If they do, its because of the community that has formed, not because of the content.  The content gets the people together. Its the people the keep them that way.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        The farm phase, that’s what missing. Now, I’m sure alot of players will be glad to lose the farm phase.  But, after that initial push to get all the dungeons done, it’s going to be hard as hell getting them to re-attempt the content.

        At some point getting your guild together to attempt content is going to be very difficult.

        • Old Ben

          > At some point getting your guild together to attempt
          > content is going to be very difficult.

          Then, if I want to do something and my guild doesn’t, I can simply join another guild (I don’t even have to leave the previous one).

          And if I don’t want to do it either, then why is that a problem? We can all just go do something else (together or separately). It’s not like we have to “justify” a monthly subscription or anything.

          A lot of people seem to worry too much about “how is the game going to force people to do things they don’t want to do?”.

          It won’t.

          That’s the point.

    • Jay

       SPVP does have a ladder system in place btw… I thought you’d like to know. Not sure exactly how they score up each person, but ANet has spoke about it before.

      You won’t see it work much in a beta weekend of course, but just like WvW, over time things will balance themselves out a lot more.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Good, I’m really glad to hear that.

  • CCLemon77

    ” MMO veterans, who are
    used to games like Rift and WoW, might be asking themselves, “What’s the
    point in continuing to play once I hit max level, if it’s easy to get
    the best gear?” ”

    The challenge I see for GW2 is to convince the majority of MMO players that there is enough incentive in the game to offset the traditional mindset of striving for that best gear and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it.  Yes, a lot of that relates to grind.  Though you’d be surprised at how many people think the grind is ‘worth it’ if it allows one to receive that high of accomplishment to distinguish themselves from the crowd.
    Sure, bad-$$$ looking armor and weapons/effects are PART of this.  But ONLY PART of this.
    The question in my mind is, will the GW2 system be ‘enough’ to sway over the majority of MMO players who are used to gear based MMOs and the high that comes with that accomplishment.

    Personally I think it’s going to take some time for this to happen, if at all.

    For PvPers and PvEers alike, I believe a good amount of players like the feeling that their time and efforts in the game world help distinguish them from other players.  I’m not sure cosmetic distinctions will actually be enough of an incentive.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

      I am concerned about this, too, to an extent. One of the nice things about the gear grind is that once you have the gear, things become much easier to accomplish. In WoW, I don’t mind helping a new guildie gear up first through heroics then through LFR (and back in the old days through old raids) because my gear was so far above those places that I could eat a sandwich and watch tv while doing it.

      Once you get the cosmetic look you want in GW2 (and I don’t have any ideas on how easy or difficult that’ll be, really), what will be your incentive to go back into an explorable mode dungeon? I feel like people will actually be de-incentived from going back, because they got the look they want, and the dungeon is not going to be significantly easier between your first time running it and the fiftieth. Even if I’m awesome at the game, I won’t be able to space out and play if my friends want to do explorable modes dungeons, and that’s sometimes a nice thing to do.

      • Old Ben

        > Once you get the cosmetic look you want in GW2, what will
        > be your incentive to go back into an explorable mode dungeon?

        Presumably, the same it was the first time: to have fun playing the game. Or do you see RPGs simply as “clothes shopping” simulators?

        What’s people’s incentive to play Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Forza Motorsport or any other skill-based game?

        > the dungeon is not going to be significantly easier
        > between your first time running it and the fiftieth

        So making it _easier_ each time would make you more likely to play it over and over again? No novelty _and_ no challenge? How would that make it more appealing? 

        > Even if I’m awesome at the game,
        > I won’t be able to space out

        If you were able to “space out” and still get the job done, then being “awesome at the game” would be kind of meaningless. 

        > and play if my friends want to do explorable modes
        > dungeons, and that’s sometimes a nice thing to do.

        If your friends want to do explorable mode dungeons, they probably want something that tests their skill and gives them a sense of actual accomplishment (not just the “mental pat on the back” from letting their gear stats do all the work and then pretending they’re “awesome”). If you don’t feel like doing that, you can just go do something else. Level up your tradeskills, gather some ingredients, log out of the game and go read a book, etc..

        If what you want is an endless treadmill where you just trade time for higher stats, and then use those higher stats to “space out” and feel “awesome” while repeating the same unchallenging content over and over and over again, then maybe GW2 isn’t the right game for you. Which isn’t really a big problem, since there are already plenty of other games that fit that model.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

          I dunno, I find my fun in video games from the “freshness” of things. I like being challenged, but on my 50th run, after 49 runs, I’m not there because of my love of challenges (I’ve in fact moved on to something else), I’m there for some other reason. In WoW, that reason may be to farm up gear for a guildie, or helping a friend out. I’m wondering what that reason is in GW2 – what’s the replayability factor of a dungeon? What’s the community-promoting aspect? I think you’re seriously discounting the fun factor of completely rolling over old, perhaps outdated content.

          You have a generally combative and unconstructive posting style, btw. I don’t know if you don’t care or not, but it makes it a chore to actually debate anything with you.

          • Old Ben

            >  I’m wondering what that reason is in GW2

            Only you can know what you reason is.

            Do you play any skill-based games (with no progressive “powering up” and no explicit “rewards” at the end) ? If so, what’s your reason for playing those?

            >  What’s the community-promoting aspect?

            What’s the community-promoting aspect of a game of baskeball or football?

            For me, it would be the teamwork. And that can only surface if there is some challenge. Carrying some friend’s low-level character through a low-level dungeon with my max-level raid-geared main would not tickle my neurons the least bit.

            I’d sooner create a new character and level along with him, so that our teamwork actually meant something.

            >  it makes it a chore to actually debate anything with you.

            Then, by all means, don’t. You won’t get any loot at the end.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

            I play a few MoBAs and Tribes. I find them fun when I’m playing with friends who know what they’re doing, i don’t like playing them with PuGs or even unskilled friends. I agree with the teamwork bit, but like I say, I feel like being part of a “team” in GW2 is de-incentivized in GW2 in terms of actually wanting to go back to help them out if I’ve seen these places 50 times before. Forgive me if that sound a bit selfish on my part, it seems to be, but I have a job, a social life, and this game is supposedly for my personal fun.

            I also don’t have fun rolling old dungeons because of nostalgia. I hate the leveling process in WoW, and that’s in part due to how bad it is, and how stratified the game is to end-game, but it also has a lot to do with my completionist attitude. I have fun rolling old dungeons because of the big pretty numbers and because gaming for me can be stress relief after a long day at work.. I feel like they get it right inasmuch they scale rewards for going back in zones to help out lower level friends, but what’s the equivalent at level 80 once you’ve got the “look” you want?

          • Old Ben

            > i don’t like playing them with PuGs
            > or even unskilled friends

            Some of the most skilled people I’ve met, I met in PuGs. Yes, 95% of the people you meet are terrible (in any game), but occasionally you meet someone with a clue, and you find yourself guessing what (s)he is going to do, coordinating your actions, and even discovering new tactics that your “usual” friends would probably never try, because they already have an optimized strategy.

            > being part of a “team” in GW2 is
            > de-incentivized in GW2 in terms of
            > actually wanting to go back to help
            > them out 

            If you’re going back to help out a _new_ player, then you’re much better off being downleveled, and teaching your friend how to work as a team.

            >  if I’ve seen these places 50 times before.

            It doesn’t really matter if you’ve seen the palace 50 times before. I’ve seen 2Fort (one of the most popular Team Fortress maps) hundreds of times before, but I still enjoy playing it. I’ve seen hoops and basketballs hundreds of times before, but I still enjoy playing it. I’ve seen lots of tits, but… well, you can complete the thought.

            If you find something boring, then the problem is that it’s boring, not the number of times you’ve done it before. Some things have enough variation built into them to make them enjoyable “forever”.

            That is Arena Net’s challenge. Give people a choice of things that they actually enjoy doing, not just force them to go through something boring to let them have some shiny pixels at the end.

            > I hate the leveling process in WoW

            There are certainly some horrible parts, but overall I find the leveling in WoW to be vastly more interesting and varied than the “endgame”.

            Sadly, some of the more interesting bits (ex, Karazhan and its surrounding quests, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection, the quests leading up to the Scholomance, etc.) are now either gone or really well hidden.

      • Jay

         To be fair… After you get the gear you want in WOW raids, what incentive is there to go back?

        Same answer applies for GW2… My guess would be fun and helping others.

        • Jado Cast

          Don’t be surprised if they add more and more dynamic events to dungeons and changing it up with patches.  There is no reason to make the “explore” mode the same forever.  That would be very cool if they throw us a curve ball during updates from time to time.

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          Sorry, I don’t think that’s going to happen on a large scale.  If the dungeons are easy, you don’t need the help, a pug should faceroll through the content.

          After you get the gear you want in WoW raids, you keep raiding to keep the group together and enjoy the content.   I’m sure there are hardcore raiding guilds out that once they clear the content at the highest raid difficulty, coming back together for the next content patch.

          I just don’t see this with GW2.  I don’t have a 5 man team and don’t want to pug PVE content.

          • Jay

            Who told you GW2 dungeons are easy? If anything, they’re known to be extremely tough.

            Easier to keep together a 5 man team than a 10-25 man team…

            “After you get the gear you want in WoW raids, you keep raiding to keep the group together and enjoy the content.”

            Why wouldn’t this apply to GW2 as well?

  • Old Ben

    Good article.

    > your skill is the primary determinant of your success

    GW2 certainly requires better awareness than most MMORPGs (I’d say that you need the same level of awareness to be a “decent” GW2 player that you need to be a very good WoW off-tank), and isn’t designed around gear checks, but it should still be perfectly playable by your average button masher, as long as he doesn’t expect to be able to complete _everything_.

    My bar for the word “skill” is being able to conc-jump from the water in TFC Well, throw a grenade through the grate to activate the button on the other side, pick up the flag from the outside, and then conc-jump across to the attic. :-P

    > Guild Wars 2 allows you to simply play the game. [...] I’ll admit that I had
    > a hard time wrapping my brain around this concept when I first started
    > reading about it.  

    Yeah, imagine designing a game so that it’s actually fun to play, and not just something that people endure in exchange for a reward at the end. What is this, 1995…? ;-)

    > Level 80 players exploring Tyria can’t compensate for a lack
    > of skill by obtaining more powerful gear.

    As long as there are areas where they can survive and find stuff to do, who cares? IMO, one of the problems with games like WoW is that, once you reach the highest level, there aren’t any “dangerous” areas in the world. I had a lot of fun in WoW, back in the olden days, running around Dustwallow Marsh at level 10-20, knowing that every creature I came across could kill me easily. I hope GW2 has several areas where even experienced level 80 players feel unsafe.

    • http://twitter.com/Rivahli Ayumi Kobayashi

      > I hope GW2 has several areas where even experienced level 80 players feel unsafe.

      You’re in luck. Players are downscaled depending on the zone they in, so zones will always pose a challenge to you.
      For example, if you are level 80, and you go back to the starting zone, you are scaled down to level 4. Of course, you still have the advantage of having better and more abilities, as well as having slightly higher stats, but you will not be able to one-shot everything, and have to be careful.

      • Old Ben

        > You’re in luck. Players are downscaled depending on the zone they in, 

        [sarcasm] Really? I had no idea. Are they keeping that feature secret? [/sarcasm] 

        > so zones will always pose a challenge to you.

        If you’re a level 20 character wearing level 20 gear, level 20 zones are quite easy. In fact, I could manage just fine in level 20 zones when my characters were level 18 and wearing level 15 gear.

        If I go back there at level 80, wearing level 80 gear, I’ll get sidekicked to level 20, so it will be even easier.

        I’m talking about places where a level 80 character actually finds it hard to survive alone (i.e., the equivalent of a “level 90″ world zone).

    • Jay

       I do believe ANet mentioned that one area is “particularly tough” at level 80. I’m hoping that they deliver on that, because I had something strange happen to me while I was playing GW2…

      I was just having fun fighting things… No objective… Just plain ol’ fighting.

      Give me a place at level 80 where I can really train my “skills”, and perhaps gather some valuable crafting materials; I’ll spend hours at time, just killing anything in sight.

      • http://www.facebook.com/pedro.ducos Pedro Ducos

        That would be the ruins of Arah in Orr. Story wise is where Zhaitan dwells. It is level 80 only area with high level mobs and dynamic events.

    • Jado Cast

      Quote:   ”I hope GW2 has several areas where even experienced level 80 players feel unsafe.”

      If they do the same as GW, you have no worries.  At max level, more than 75% of the PVE areas was very “unsafe.”  I don’t remember where I read it but one of the Anet spokesman said that reaching level 80 in GW2 will be similar to reaching level 20 in GW.   There will be a lot of game left to play after max level.  

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        When I speak with former GW players, they keep saying that once they got to level 20.  They couldn’t get their guildies to try harder content, so they simply stopped playing.  Was this true?

        • Jado Cast

          Well I can only speak for my experience, and the answer would be no.  I played in 3 guilds over 5 years, and for 2 of those years, I played GW exclusively over any other MMO (if you consider GW an MMO which many do not).  I think many people continued to beat the campaign, and then yes, many quit, instead of running dungeons, or Underworld, or Fissure of Woe, Sorrow’s etc.  The hardcore farmed ecto, collected, mini’s, farmed boss drops, or would dive in the the different kinds of PvP.  But for many they felt it was done when they reached the end of the final quest/missions.  However, once they added the EoTN, and the Hall of Heroes, many folks came back to get their points.  That’s just my perspective, but others may have a different experience with their guilds.

      • Old Ben

        But if they do the same as GW I won’t be able to jump, dammit! :-P

  • http://twitter.com/nemui_89 Nemui

    gear based progression only has one purpose: to keep people subscribed for as long as possible to leech as much money as possible out of them.
    it would be an improvement for gaming to see the sub-fee business model die. without, i suppose a gear treadmill wouldn’t be as bad.. just boring. see Diablo 3

  • garkLamer

    I think gear grinders from other mmo’s and wow in particular will continue grinding gear in the same fashion as they always done. Being one of those my self, I never stopped raiding until I was 100% maxed out. Expansion after expansion, patch after patch.. I never got tired of it. The difference now will be that instead of grinding for exlusive gear to ensure being able to get even more exlusive gear fast before anyone else when next Tier is released, you will now be able to do it in your own pace in GW2. Since I now live a different life with a 2 year old boy and a very challenging job, I don’t think the “old grinding habits” would fit my schedule anymore. But I WILL grind for the rarest of the rare items as ever before. It will just take me longer to get them.
    Also, I would like to mention that I do not favor any other game more than the other out there that have the main purpose of entertaining its fans and loyal players. All major MMO releases I have played, WoW, WAR, Conan, Aion, Rift, SWtOR, Tera and now the latest amazing Secret World, have all been great games with high value as entertainment. They all have their pros and cons that can be debated into the end of time.. which migh be quite near when I think of it.. However, I greatly respect these games developers and all the devoted people that made them what they are (were).. Just keep ‘em coming ^^But GW2 is something else, this game is alive! It’s not asking me to spend hundreds of hours to trade for a short “rush” over the remains of some dead boss.. GW2 just wants me to tag along for an adventure. This is exactly what I intend to do!

    • Hellscreamgold

      “amazing Secret World”  Couple weeks ago, the TSW beta I played was horrible…beyond horrible.

      Like, Everquest 1 in 2001 was better than TSW is now horrible

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      I agree, GW2 will be a very good casual MMO. I’m looking forward to the WvW and seeing how far I can get in PVE. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/groovy.wondermonkey Groovy Wondermonkey

    The mindset NEEDS to change. 

    The gear based progression and the inherent elitism and snobbery that stems from that system needs to go away (ie. I have Gear, therefore I have Skill, therefore I am inherently better than you, noob!). 
    Likewise, the Subscription MMO format needs to go away. Games like WoW and SWToR offer nothing new. It is the same rehashed content with a different coat of paint at every expansion. Its like chewing the same piece of beef jerky for 6 years, the only reason you would do that is because there is no other option. You can have your high fantasy MMO, or your space MMO or no MMO at all. 

    WoW itself (and games like it) has nothing to offer. When it came out it was revolutionary, I will give it that, but now it is just super diluted, super dumbed-down, fast-food content to appeal to a massive audience solely for the purpose of making money. Long gone is Blizzards sense of pride in their art, traded in for a money faucet. ArenaNet brings back the innovation and pride in making a fun, inspiring and beautiful product. GW2 feels fresh and fun to play, the ability to explore how, where and when I want to is amazing.
    The fact that I can excel in PvP based on my ability to play my class, and not have to worry about taking time off and losing my gear-based competitive edge is beyond amazing!
    Will GW2 have its problems? Sure it will, nothing is perfect, but I think that the system overall is far superior to what we are all used to (and sick of) seeing.
    I think it is important that people have the courage to step out of their comfort zones and try something new. I think that GW2 has an awful lot to offer and ArenaNet deserves the support for standing up to the current mode of thinking and daring to do things differently, and succeeding, big time!

    • CCLemon77

      I’m not necessarily condoning this, however I believe it plays a part in why MMO players like the grind and gear progression.

      These MMO games provide MMO players a way to feel ‘empowered’ over others (that they normally can not necessarily do in real life) when they play an MMO game.  It is a way for MMO players to compete to be the best or better than others and feel/be distinguished from the crowd which they may not be able to do in real life.

      So in effect, MMO games provide some sort of ‘outlet’ for people to stretch their ego in ways they can not do in real life.  Sad but true, it’s a type of therapy.
      Now I’m not saying everyone plays MMOs for this reason, though I wouldn’t be surprised if that mentality is one of the reasons why a lot of MMO players subject themselves to the grind of gear progression and the promise of being in the best class or best of the best.

      MMO makers like Blizzard prey on this, rely on this to keep their business afloat, and well look, over 10mil subscribers and still relatively going strong.  It just goes to show you how powerful the draw to ‘be the best’ is.

      Business is Business, and no matter how you cut it, subscribers(customers) are going to be the big variable in the equation for the success of GW2.  Just because GW2 isn’t subscription based doesn’t mean the volume of customers is less important.  The more customers GW2 has, the more likely there will be purchases with real world cash for game items on the gem store.

      So, GW2′s challenge will be to compete against what has ultimately been a major ‘mental’ draw to gear based grind games like MMO.
      It’s easy to say that such games are horrible and “who in their right mind would want to grind?”.

      Well, again, there’s a lot of people who feel that is fun, and there’s also a lot of people not in their right mind.

      To be the dominant MMO on the market, GW2 has to replace the common addiction that WoW and other MMO games provide with a whole new addiction that’s strong enough to pull people away from games like WoW.

      But even if GW2 does not, it will probably be a successful game.  Though, the more players the game can attract, the more revenue and the more revenue to more game updates and new content releases.  So, let’s hope the game is successful enough to provide that.

      • Jay

         Well, Guild Wars 2 does have a similar way of showing, “I’m the best.”… It’s just not through gear stats, but actual achievements. You can only get certain gear through completing certain tasks. The only difference is, you won’t be doing more damage based on the gear, but instead it will be based on your ability to deliver damage efficiently.

        Less time healing = more time putting damage on target.

        • Jado Cast

          Yep, just like GW, the elite will be determined by skins, emotes, and titles earned in PVP or PVE challenges.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

      >>The fact that I can excel in PvP based on my ability to play my class, and not have to worry about >>taking time off and losing my gear-based competitive edge is beyond amazing! 

      Spoken like a true un-skilled player who never played at the top levels of WoW or any other MMO. Let me tell you – every disc priest in 2500+ arenas is geared exactly the same way, most often with the same exact specs. Yes, there’s a higher barrier to enter the arena, but once you’re in there, it’s skill which defines you. The gear grind that precedes it is just to sift the serious from the non-serious.

      It is not a bad thing to like the old models. I’m a big fan of GW2, but I don’t view it as, for example, a game which will re-define the MMO market, simply because they take a short-term view of fun and not a long-term view of epic. I know I’ll have fun in GW2. I’ll play it for a few months, like I played, say, Magicka, and then I’ll put it down. Maybe I’ll come back on a random off-raiding day, and enjoy myself thoroughly, but then I’ll put it down again. It will require no effort – only skill – and to some of us who are already skillful, that’s not a recipe for a long commitment.

      • dawolv

        I fear you mistake commitment with dumping free time.

        If I pick up a shooter that gives me shit weapons and tells me I need to get 1000 kills before I can get a better one I’ll give it a shot. Then, after a day getting 5 kills, because everyone else has ridiculous armor and does more damage to me, I’m putting it away.
        I’m not being UNSERIOUS, it’s the game flipping me off, and I have better stuff to do with my time than “committing” (as you’d put it) to the game.

        “long-term-view of epic”?
        What does that even mean?
        Is epicness defined by numbers?
        Is it more epic to gradually get better gear then gradually getting better in playing and finally beating that super hard boss?
        What’s more rewarding? Knowing you defeated the boss because you just own, or because your sword got higher numbers than his?

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          So far, I haven’t seen any epic fights in GW2 PVE.  What I have seen is spamming range attack and the skill is dodging AOE attacks to stay alive.  You hit the boss long enough and it falls over dead.   

          What is rewarding is getting the very best dps and heals out of your spec and gear. Working as a group to tackle a hard boss that has given your group difficulty.  It is very satisfying to kill a boss that has given you fits for weeks.

          So far, I haven’t had a reason to cheer after downing a boss in GW2.  I was just glad it was over, so I could go do another event.  So far, after kill a event boss, if I see that the boss has re-spawned. I have not desire to attempt the boss again.  

      • Jado Cast

        LOL, go ahead and say it, you know you want to . . . call him a carebear.  :-)

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      The only elitism and snobbery I see is the GW2 poster that insist that everyone else needs to change to meet their views. 
       
      That nobody can enjoy other MMO’s and all MMOs must follow Arenanet.   

  • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

    Great job for your first Article Richie!

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      Thank you, sir!

      • Jay

         That’s a mighty looking Otter avatar you got there. I look forward to your insight on this upcoming Guildcast.

  • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

    (Duplicate)

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

      You’re telling me I have to aim in this game when my character corrects itself and sends the attack in the direction of the mob I’m targetted on.  Are you serious?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Caliolo/100003765889295 Robert Caliolo

    Simple solution to no gear progression is More skills added as the game progresses.
    Same thing just different title. Apples vs Oranges

    BTW anyone know how many levels the personal story is supposed to last?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Willi-Enderle/1668850948 Willi Enderle

      all the way up to 80 (if im not totally mistaken)

    • Old Ben

      > Simple solution to no gear progression is More skills added
      > as the game progresses.

      That’s the approach used in The Secret World (well, they have gear progression too, but it’s mainly skill unlocking, with over 500 skills, some of which are actually duplicates with a slightly different name). And it’s just as bad, conceptually.

      The game should be designed to keep people playing because the actual _gameplay_ is enjoyable, not just because of the promise of some reward at the end.

      > Same thing just different title. Apples vs Oranges

      Huh? Now I’m confused. Are apples and oranges the same thing with a different title…? They’ve managed to fool me for a long time, then.

  • Ryan Smith

    So does this mean there will be no rare loot etc?

    • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

      There’s tons of rare loot and legendary items in the game. They just don’t give you any additional stats at level 80, but they make you look like a bad ass compared to everyone else.

    • dawolv

       They said there is legendary loot that has DIFFERENT stats, not necessarily BETTER ones.
      f.i.:
      You can buy the Lvl 80 Racial gear in 4 different version:
      +40 Toughness + 10 everything else
      +40 Vitality + 10 everything else

      And then theres legendary armor sets that give you
      +20 Vitality, +20 Toughness +15 everything else
      or +50 Vitality + 5 everything else.

      It doens’t make you BETTER, it makes you more distinct, and, depending on your skills and traits, you can better fine tune your character.

  • http://www.facebook.com/groovy.wondermonkey Groovy Wondermonkey

    gah.. how do i delete a post?

    • Old Ben

      Basically, you don’t. Just replace it with something like “(deleted)” or “(duplicate)” and the moderators will eventually delete it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/groovy.wondermonkey Groovy Wondermonkey

    @ Tony. you were probably out of range. In GW2 you can use any ability at any time, regardless of whether the attack will hit your target or not. This is another minor element of ‘skill’ that other mmo’s such as WoW do not have. WoW holds your hand and protects you from blowing abilities when there is no target in range. GW2 expects you to pay attention and be more active in the gameplay.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/BDT3IQJ3P5QFIR75KPGHMLFZ3M Tony

      I guarentee I was not out of range. I played a bit of Tera and figured that out pretty quickly. Although Tera and any other non-target system game is retarded for putting a range on your aimed attacks.

      • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

        (@Tony)Some abilities in the game are considered “skill shots” similiar to what you might see in League of Legends or something. You actually have to aim them in order to hit the enemy. Enemy npc’s( as well as players) can side step these abilities. I think most of,but not all, the projectile or throwing skills in the game have to be aimed.

        • Old Ben

          > Some abilities in the game are considered “skill shots” [...]
          > You actually have to aim them

          Are you talking about Tera? In GW2, other than ground-targeted AoEs, you never have to aim anything manually, as long as you select your target or have auto-target turned on.

          You can still miss if the enemy changes direction during the projectile flight, depending on the ability (some will home in on the target, some are really just aimed at the ground where the target is “predicted” to be, but will miss if the target isn’t there when the projectile lands).

          • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

            Watch Taugrim’s newest PVP video, and he demonstrates that things can be side stepped just by strafing. I’ve also experienced this in game. You may not have to aim in the same way as you would a ground based AoE yes, but you do have to be aware of your positioning as well as your targets path of movement when firing off some of these abilities. So its similar to aiming.

          • Old Ben

            > things can be side stepped just by strafing

            I’m well aware of that. That’s not what I wrote.

            What I said was that, if you have a target selected, the game does all the aiming for you. You cannot control the shots at all. You can be facing 90 degrees off to the side and your character will still lead the target and aim at where it thinks the enemy will be.

            If you want to aim manually, you need to deselect the target (and turn off auto-targeting).

            There are no abilities that you “have to aim” (other than ground-targeted ones). But you _can_ aim any ability that you want (by not having a target, and just using the camera direction).

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            No, there are abilities that you can “aim.”  The combat system just has the option to convert them to ground attack abilities.

          • Old Ben

            Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example (the name) of such an ability?

          • Jay

             Yup, I think it’s a nice balance of skill vs user friendliness. We still have to think before firing off that shot, unlike WoW, where you can just stare at your skill bar and pretty much be okay.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

             Not “other than”. AoE can be set to do that too.

          • Old Ben

            No, the game never automatically _aims_ ground-targeted AoE for you. You always have to aim it yourself, either by pointing your camera or by using your cursor (depending on the fast cast option).

            Other abilities are automatically aimed based on your target, and independently from your mouse cursor or camera angle.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Old Ben are you saying that there is or is not skill shots in GW2.

            You do have skill shot abilities, but you can convert them ground target abilities.

          • Old Ben

            I think I was pretty clear.

            Ground-targeted abilities (ex., volcano) always have to be aimed manually (either by casting them on the mouse cursor or by aiming the camera at the place where you want to cast them).

            Other abilities can be aimed manually, by turning the camera (if you disable auto-targeting), or aimed automatically (if you enable auto-targeting or select a target explicitly).

            I don’t know what your definition of “skill shots” is. If you mean “manually aimed”, see above.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            I haven’t actually gotten around to trying that myself but Richie and Elizabeth’s descriptions of fast cast sounds like it would make AoE’s cast on whatever target you have selected. If you also have auto target enabled then it should also auto select a target if you don’t have one and then the rest would work out the same as if you did the selecting yourself.

          • Old Ben

            > Richie and Elizabeth’s descriptions
            > of fast cast sounds like it would make
            > AoE’s cast on whatever target you
            > have selected. 

            Nope. Some enemy-targeted spells have an AoE-like effect (ex., “hits your target and then jumps to the nearest 5 enemies”), but spells designed to be cast on the ground (like lava font, geyser, static field, etc.) will not automatically appear under a selected enemy.

            They will appear either under your mouse cursor or in the place your camera is aimed at, depending on your interface options and on whether or not you’re holding down the right mouse button (i.e., in “mouse look” mode).

            I tested this a lot because I found a bug with the modifier keys early on (that caused those spells to always be cast under your own character’s feet when you used a certain combination of targeting options).

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            I was planning to use fast cast because it sounded like it would make the AoE’s work the same as in GW1, but now it seems more like something I’ll use when goofing around.

            or if I ever decide to try RPing and I am roleplaying a drunk ele. :)

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Please, you can spam a range attack all day long and never run out of mana or energy.  Talk about hand holding.  While I like GW2 combat, its not difficult. Thats not what the skill in GW2 is about.

  • http://twitter.com/digitalexodus Tim O’Connell

    … the wait is, literally, killing me.

    • Old Ben

      How did you post that, then? I had no idea there was internet access in the afterlife.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

        The killing is still in progress.

        • Old Ben

          I’m pretty sure death is binary. I’m immortal, at least based on the evidence I have so far.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

             He is Downed, not Dead. :)

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            ROFL

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        There is an app for that now.

  • dawolv

     Ya but you wont have content all the way, sometimes you will finish a part and then theres a 3level gap for the next step

    • Jay

       You can easily teleport to any of the other races starting zones. We’ve only seen 3 so far, but remember there will be 5 to choose from at launch.

    • Old Ben

      What do you mean by “next step” ? You could easily level to 30 or 35 just in the level 1-15 areas and cities, without repeating anything. 

      • http://www.facebook.com/kaj.udanga Kaj Udanga

         I think he’s talking about the personal story in reply to what someone asked earlier.

        • Old Ben

          Well, story steps were never supposed to give you enough experience to level all the way to the end without doing anything else. You’ll always need to do some quests / events / crafting / exploration between the steps.

          • dawolv

             Exactly what I said, thx for the recap :;D
            Ya I was talking about the PS.
            But some of my guildmates had a problem that they could only level in queensdale up to 12 and then there was kinda a weird spot where they couldn’t progress further.

            I didn’t have that problem because I played all starter areas first and then moved on to higher stuff.
            Seeing as there are more Level 2-30 Areas in the game as 70-80 Areas, this might be a good idea to do those first. After all there are 5 of them (1-15) and then some up to 30

          • Old Ben

            > some of my guildmates had a problem that
            > they could only level in queensdale up to 12

            I read some people complaining about that in the forums, but I leveled 7 characters in the two BWEs (not all past 15, though) and never had that problem.

            I suspect those people were just doing the renown hearts (and / or the personal story) and ignoring map and city exploration (you can get a couple of levels just by visiting all the teleport markers in a city), and probably also skipping most dynamic events. 

            I’m pretty sure you can level 1-15 in a single area, and I’m sure you can do it in a single area + 2 cities (local capital + Lion’s Arch). And that was without doing any of the personal story (except the very first step, which I had to do with my human characters).

            In fact, you can level all the way to 80 just with crafting, but obviously you’d need some way to get the ingredients, which isn’t going to be easy for the first couple of months after launch.

  • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

    I used to raid in WoW for at least 5+years, but the whole concept of getting better gear, for me at least, was  not only to look like a bad ass, but mainly to just use it as a tool so I could actually experience those end game raids and hard boss fights. Guild Wars 2 still offers that experience with its dungeons, with explorable mode being more in line with raiding as far as boss difficulty. The only big difference is at level 80 your stats will level out with all the 80 gear, but you can still look like a bad ass veteran of the game with the drops you get from actually being able to tackle the harder content. I can almost guarantee that not everyone is going to be able to finish the explorable mode dungeons unless they go with a coordinated guild or experienced group of players, as well as have some skill and knowledge themselves.

     Aside from that, Arenanet has already stated that they fully intend to support the game with expansions and also smaller content patches. So I’m sure we’ll see new abilities added to the game(Just like GW1), new dungeons, and new awesome looking gear. I just hope that players(mainly on the pve side of things) actually try the harder content before they write this game off as having “no endgame”.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

       ”I did not try the endgame therefore the endgame does not exist.” <- is this a valid argument?

      • Old Ben

        If you subscribe to a Von Neumann interpretation of quantum mechanics, yes, it is.

        Hey, you asked… :-P

        • Randall Burt

          Heisenberg tells us that the end game both exists and doesn’t exist simultaneously until you have tried it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/kaj.udanga Kaj Udanga

            Schrodinger’s end game?

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            That actually applies, because the game hasn’t been released yet.  But in less than two months we are going to find out if that GW2 cat is alive or dead.

        • Jado Cast

          I think Anet has Occam’s razor approach to making games.  ”Keep it simple stupid” approach so if gaming is fun, why wait to the end to have fun right?  In my opinion, the entire game is the “end game.”

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          You are missing your fortiori argument.   GW2 has no end game, because the game hasn’t been released yet.   We will find out in six months if the GW2 end game is standing in a beautiful city with a gold plated spoon. (Got tired of the butter knife references.)

    • Old Ben

      “Endgame” is Blizzard-speak for “so far you’ve been exploring a massive world, now that you’ve reached the highest level your reward is to sit in front of the AH waiting to repeat the same couple of dungeons over and over again”. 

      We don’t need no stinkin’ “endgame”. We need a game that is fun to play at level 80 for the same reasons that it was fun to play at level 40.

      • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

        agreed

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Your are assuming that GW2 level 80 content is fun to play.  Maybe you will have fun running level 30 content over and over again, maybe you will have fun finding a group that will run level 80 content more than a couple of times. Maybe you will have fun standing in the beautiful capital cities having fun with your gold plated butter knife.  

        • Old Ben

          > Your are assuming that GW2 level 80 content is fun to play.

          I’m assuming that “level 80 content” follows the same style as level 20 or level 30 content, most of which I did enjoy. In fact, I know that level 80 content will _include_ all the level 30 content, so I can always repeat the bits I liked and go back looking for bits I missed.

          This isn’t WoW. I don’t expect the game to turn into “sit by the AH waiting for a group to run the same 3 dungeons over and over again” after I hit 80, because (unlike in WoW) 99% of the world and 90% of the instances don’t become completely useless at max level.

  • http://twitter.com/Hengman14 Chettra Heng

     From an eSport perspective, being skill based is essential. The reason why LoL, SC2, and fighting games are so successful as an eSport is because (team) coordination, strategy, response, and awareness are the defining factors to a successful win.

    The other MMOs that have gear as a factor aren’t eSports for that very reason. Competition IS about skill and not the legendaries with floating skulls and electricity whirling about them.

    As for lack of endgame; it’s refreshing to actually experience the game from the beginning rather than after 50 hours of grinding to max level. Plus, WvWvW will be my endgame.

    • Jay

       Well said, sir.

    • Old Ben

      > it’s refreshing to actually experience the game from the
      > beginning rather than after 50 hours of grinding to max level

      The idea that WoW-style MMOs “start at max level” is miselading. Reality is even worse. ;-)

      In a game like WoW, leveling up gives you access to new areas (same as in GW2) but it effectively makes it impossible for you to enjoy other areas. What one hand gives, the other takes.

      For example, if you rush to level 85 and then decide to play through Karazhan, the Black Temple or Pit of Saron, you probably won’t enjoy them nearly as much as you would at the appropriate level. Once you “out-level” content, you can’t go back (unless you level another character from scratch). 

      GW2′s approach (leveling players down to match the area they’re in) allows them to experience all the content even at max level (they can even equip lower-level gear if they want the full challenge).

      So not only do you get a much better idea of the game’s long-term gameplay sooner, but you also retain access to all the parts that you liked and all the parts that you may have missed while leveling.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Going through the older content at max level is a blast. It’s alot of fun getting two or three players together and running through the older raid content.  Took me a little bit to figure out how to complete the Chess event in Kara with two players, but it was fine.  Have a little smile on my face thinking about my last MC, Kara and BT runs.  

        Now its different if you have level appropriate players in your group.  I’m not fond of carrying or getting carried through a raid.  If I’m level approriate, I would rather run through older content with other players at the same level.

        What I am concerned about with GW2 is what happens after six months and can’t get anyone to run any content, because they are all standing in the beautiful cities with their perfectly dyed rare gear, thinking everyone is ”jelly” about their character.   I could care less, I would rather be running content, than worriying if my bracers match my shoes.

        • dawolv

           What makes you think something like this will happen?
          Just because it’s a cosmetic driven game everyone will turn into a gay fashion expert? (gay as in “most fashion experts are homosexual” not as in “gay – you suck gay)

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Dawolv, that’s your slur and you need to address it.

            I was talking about the replayability of content and how the incentive of cosmetic gear will eventually lead to players just hanging around cap cities showing off their pretty gear.  I think the content is GW2 is going to be so difficult and once the player base gets their prefect gear, getting players back into the world will be very, very difficult.  I suspect after a few months, it will be next to impossible getting guildies to run any difficult content.

          • Old Ben

            TBH, “you suck” is a big part of the other definition, too. 

            Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

        • Old Ben

          > Going through the older content at max level is a blast. 

          Yeah, it’s great to go into Karazhan and basically kill every boss in a couple of hits, without seeing most of their abilities, without going through the various phases of the fight, and without the thought of “strategy” or “teamwork” even crossing one’s mind…

          > I could care less

          So you do care…?

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      If a MMO is serous about eSport, they include the ability to roll on tournament server, decide on your team composition and select your talents.

      I’m not aware of any MMO that allows you to bring a gear-based character into a eSport tournament.   You play with a pre-made character and it’s all about the player.

      It will be interesting to see if GW2 can flourish as a eSport. I know Arenanet said they were interested in GW2 as a eSport, it will be interesting to see if they follow through.

      • dawolv

         They need to sort out a replay function and spectator mode asap!
        Only then will a good competitive scene start to flurish.

        You rely on people to stream their matches and show off skills to get other players excited and willing to step into the ring as well.

        • http://twitter.com/Hengman14 Chettra Heng

          Arenanet has said they are going to have a spectator type mode, just not at launch. It’s going to be available after launch apparently. So they’d got the right idea!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1053227096 Nathan Stoddard

    Gear treadmills are borring…Im supperexcited about GW2 and all the inovations they are putting out to reward friendly comunity gameplay  >.< so stoked!

    the idea that 80% of a game is just there to quickly grind through so you can play the actual game "end game" the last 10% is F*tarded :l

  • Thomas Formato

    Is this how Arenet and NCsoft go about getting around their limited gear models and lack of interest in good loot. Why not make a skill based game with decent looking loot? I like my hero to look like a hero. Not some common person in the world.  I must say I regret purchasing this game.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Willi-Enderle/1668850948 Willi Enderle

      If you are not happy with it, there is still the possibility of refund.
      Contact support

    • XMP_Data_Guru

      LOL I like the look.  And really.. do you play to be a run way model or for the fun?  Some people will never be able to leave that “hardcore” raiding mentality that ruins the fun in a game and replaces it with carrots and “LOOK AT ME” gear because they need to feel like living in a game instead of having a real life.  Fun is the reward… playing with friends and BSing while your doing it is the reward.  I dont need Im better then you in a game gear.  If in your life game accomplishments are what makes you feel good about yourself then I would say WOW Rift is more your style.

    • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

      have you seen the end game loot? Because if you’re just talking about the starting zone stuff or even gear at level 30 or so, then ya it dosent look all that great admittedly. I have seen some of the explorable dungeon merchants with some nice looking gear on, so if that’s any indication of what we have to look forward too, then I wouldn’t worry too much. Remember this game has 80 levels and no ones really seen much content past level 30, So i wouldn’t count it out just yet. 

    • dawolv

       HAVE YOU SEEN THE ARMOR ON CHARACTER CREATION?
      This is a living game, if they base the game around cosmetics, they will add more over the games lifespan.
      I’m certainly am not concerned with that stuff right now

    • Oskiee

      http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_weapon
      I give you the Ghastly Weapon set. “Ghastly weapons are a set of Masterwork weapons. They possess a blue glow at night. Ghastly weapons heal the user during the day and steal health from enemies at night.”

      Yea… if thats not awesome enough for you… then i dunno what ever will be for you. 

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

         I’ve been extremely impressed by the limited gear models I’ve seen so far.  The artistic “painterly” art style that the game has really lends itself to some amazing works of art gear-wise.

      • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

        nice! first time really seeing them besides on some of the ghostly enemies. Def need one of these for my Thief.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brandon-Carpenter/100003272493739 Brandon Carpenter

      Obviously you didn’t get past 15, or bothered buying a new set of Armor. 

    • Old Ben

      Lots of new accounts today, eh…? It’s almost as if someone forgot their password or something.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Wouldn’t be surprised if Richie brought in a bunch of new posters.

        • Jado Cast

          I think there are a lot of readers from Massively coming over more and more as well.  That’s how they hooked me when Guild Cast moved over from Shawn’s Podcast to Gary.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Same here, started following more Massively content based on The Republic and GuildCast.

    • Jay

       Sharuko? Is that you??

  • Karizee

    Sexy

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Quinn/504633100 Jason Quinn

    I love the feeling of getting a piece of gear I’ve been after for weeks. It’s the most satisfying feeling and I’m a little worried that I won’t have that same satisfaction of earning a reward for putting my time into pve.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1210503307 Andrew Hebert

      In the original guidl wars, nothing was as satisfying as getting the Elite Luxon armor, inspite of the fact that it had no statistical benefit over regular Luxon armor (or any of the other myriad level 20 armors, for that matter). Trust me, the exhileration still there, but it’s more about the aesthetics and getting the armor you want, not that armor the next dungeon requires.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

        For whatever  reason getting a “perfect” weapon was also more satisfying than an slightly less than perfect even though the difference could literally be 1 damage. Then there is purple vs gold … on the other hand I hated greens because ANet loves Sundering a bit too much.

    • Jay

       I think it’s almost the same satisfaction, since you’re still getting a rare item to show off. When you finally get that crazy looking sword and stand next to that guy still using a butter knife… You’ll know what I mean. ;3

      • Old Ben

        At least until you want to butter some bread, and you realize how impractical your crazy sword is. Hah!

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      Is the satisfying feeling coming from the fact that the piece of gear has +5 more strength on it than your old piece of gear?  Or is it because you had to beat challenging content to get it and because it looks awesome?  If it’s the latter, you’ll be find in Guild Wars 2.  If it’s the former, than a gear-based game might give you more satisfaction.

      • Old Ben

        Although it’s a different brain mechanism, sometimes I get the feeling that gear drops are a bit like canned laughs. It’s there to convince you that you’ve been having fun (or that you’ve “achieved” something) even when you haven’t.

        The problem is that some people become so “reprogrammed” by that cycle that they practically lose the ability to have fun (or to feel a sense of achievement) without the “signal” at the end. 

  • Leigh_21

    Great job bogotter! cant wait to see more from you on gamebreaker

    • Old Ben

      You heard Leigh, Richie. Start undoing those shirt buttons… ;-)

      • Leigh_21

        lol 

      • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

        Leigh said more from me….not of me.  :P

        • Old Ben

          Oh, shut up and shake that booty. :-P

        • dawolv

           epic language skills are epic…

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002834204395 Senrab Nala

    It’s still fun to get legendary gear which does have better stats, like crafting or saving up karma to buy those expensive yellow items. There is plenty to work forward to. Along with obtaining great skins, Map completions and pvp, I can’t argue with the game not having an end game. It’s a beautiful game and deserves the chance for everyone to give it a go before ridicule.

  • http://www.facebook.com/christopher.j.george Christopher George

    Wow, really great article! Those last three paragraphs were especially insightful; I’d never really considered the drawbacks of skill-based progression (i.e. the idea of a “skill ceiling”), but the analysis makes complete sense. As soon as I set my sights on GW2 as being my next MMO I hopped into Guild Wars to reap the HoM rewards and familiarize myself with the lore so as to potentially improve my experience when the game finally dropped. I steadily got used to the idea of skill-based progression and thought it seemed much more friendly to the casual gamer, but thinking back to my FFXI and WoW days I’ve definitely played with many real-life friends who had a lot of difficulty handling the high-pressure situations that I frequently dragged them into (albeit selfishly) in both PvE and PvP settings. I naturally wanted to ease their transition into the games by hand-holding them through the process of kitting out their characters in order to tip the scales in their favor. Often this made the challenges more manageable and the experience more fun for all of us but, with the removal of said option, it’s very possible that a lot of players will hit a wall that threatens their ability to enjoy the game—no matter how supportive their in-game friends may be.  

    • Old Ben

      > the idea of a “skill ceiling” [...]
      > it’s very possible that a lot of players will hit a wall
      > that threatens their ability to enjoy the game

      Do you find that your inability to play in the NBA makes it impossible for you to enjoy playing basketball (or whatever else you like to play) ?

      As long as the game gives you plenty of things to do (instead of funneling everyone into the same handful of instances, on an endless gear treadmill), what does it matter if some things are “too hard” for some people? 

      What matters is if they can find something _enjoyable_ to do in the game or not.

      Imagine game “A” has 15 dungeons, 5 of which are really hard (and only 10% of players can complete them). Game “B” has 10 dungeons, all of which are easy enough for everybody to complete. Which game do you think has more long-term appeal?

      • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

        Yeah I think Old Ben has the right of it here.  Some things like sPvP and explorable mode dungeons, may be too challenging for everyone to complete.  But since you don’t actually need the gear from doing those things to see the rest of the content, it doesn’t feel as bad as it would in a gear-based game. As long as there is plenty of content everyone can enjoy (and I think there will be), it should work out.

        • Old Ben

          > Some things like sPvP and explorable mode dungeons,
          > may be too challenging for everyone to complete. 

          And don’t forget the jumping puzzles. I can definitely see some people dominating in PvP but hitting a brick wall (with spikes) when they try the obstacle courses.

          > As long as there is plenty of content everyone can
          > enjoy (and I think there will be), it should work out.

          The lack of a subscription fee will hopefully also give Arena Net the confidence to ignore the whiners who say “I’m paying the subscription so I should be allowed to experience all the content” (which is false logic in the first place, but kind of carries the threat of canceling the subscription, so some companies fall for it and end up ruining their games for everyone else).

          • http://www.facebook.com/christopher.j.george Christopher George

            Oh, I’m not worried about whether or not it will be well-received or viable in the long-term—quite the contrary, I’m exceedingly confident that it will live up in both respects. I was simply commenting on the fact that, before reading this article, I hadn’t given a whole lot of thought toward how it would affect my ability to play with my closer friends in situations in which there is a skill discrepancy. I was thinking primarily in the PvP sense, as I’m certain that my friends and I will find ourselves foraying into that scene sooner rather than later.

            A somewhat stylistically-inappropriate example of what I meant: When the Halo 3 era (or the LoL era, for that matter) passed over our gaming friend collective, I found that I was relatively mediocre at it. I tried to hone my skills with practice and soak up as much savvy from my better-endowed friends as I could, as I had absolutely loved (and been at least above-average at) Halo 2 and had highly anticipated Halo 3 along with the masses, but for one reason or another I simply couldn’t escape my plateau. I’d still kick back and enjoy a game whenever the option presented itself, but I’d be lying if I said that it didn’t slightly curb my ambition to know that when the scoreboard came up I would always be the one leaving his teammates to pick up his slack. When there is a degree of gear-based progression involved, focusing on the minuscule achievements of equipping this Mantle of Mild Betterment or that Staff of Slight Improvement gives one a tangible token to work toward, and one’s skill will likely improve organically on the way. At least, that’s the attitude that I’ve taken in other gear-based systems. Having a lot of content to enjoy sure could control that issue, but I find it likely that we’ll end up funneling ourselves into the content that the player base as a whole finds the most challenging.      

            Don’t get me wrong, I can definitely see myself preferring this system. Heck, I’m ecstatic about its accompanying removal of the entry-level “slaughter” period that has become so prevalent in PvP and can’t wait to try my hand at it over the next Beta Weekend Event. I only meant that, prior to reading this article, I hadn’t had a real grasp on how much of an attitude adjustment it would be once I finally hit 80. 

          • Old Ben

            > prior to reading this article, I hadn’t had a real grasp on how
            > much of a different outlook I’d need once I finally hit 80.

            I don’t think you will need such a different outlook. At least not unless “reaching level 80″ was your fundamental objective. 

            In a game like WoW, you kind of do need a new outlook, because stat inflation on heroic gear is so ridiculous that all level 1-84 content (and most level 85 content) becomes completely “facerollable” and unrewarding after you’re in raid gear (I mean unrewarding in a personal achievement sense, I don’t even mean in terms of loot). 

            In GW2 reaching level 80 doesn’t lead to such a radical change in gameplay. It’s basically the same gameplay you had at level 20, just with more alternatives (access to more areas, more dungeons, move vendors, etc.).

            Of course, a lot of things won’t be new anymore, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be fun to play through them a second (or third, or tenth) time, trying different tactics or using different weapons. And chances are that by the time you reach level 80 you’ve seen less than 25% of the game, so there will still be plenty of surprises. The same goes for WoW, BTW (people reach max level without having seen most of the world), it’s just that in WoW those surprises in lower-level areas won’t be much fun, since you’ll basically kill everything just by breathing on it.

  • Mystique60

    I know we all saw this in games, but I specifically remember a girl player who was as dumb as a box of rocks.  She did however always have the best gear.  She would (metaphorically)  bat her eyelashes and the guy gamers would drop everything to help her.  I am so glad GW2 will be dependent on skill and not gear. and yes I did want her gear.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      You’ll still want her gear, just for a different reason. You’ll want it for the look rather than because you need the stats. For some people look is even more important than stats.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Same thing is going to happen in GW2.  She is going to get carried through all the dungeons and “given” all the dye so she can unlock all the pretty colors.

  • http://www.facebook.com/yayvash Greg Phillips

    excellent article Richie. well-thought out, balancing the ups and downs and various perspectives. all-in-all a great read. this will help some of my WoW friends who have been asking “What, no raids?” lately. thanks! :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/imbvfx Ian M Brown

    WvW from what I can tell actually doesn’t unlock all your skills for use, it does however give you all your trait points and allows you to invest them. The key thing I noticed in doing WvW was that the skills I had unlocked were available and those I had not unlocked weren’t.

    • 7BitBrian

      In the past beta WvW did not unlock all the skills for you, but you could unlock them in WvW. With that said; I still think it was easier to unlock the abilities in PvE and then use them in WvW.

      Things may change for this next beta and Launch though. We’ll see.

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      WvW works like normal PvE progression except that your health, damage and some stats are bumped up a bit so you can be effective at any level.  You can still gain levels in WvW, find gear and progress your character as normal.  At level 80 you’ll hit the same gear plateau as found in the rest of the game.

    • Old Ben

      In WvW your character is bumped up to level 80, and gets the perks associated with that (improved stats and trait points), but you don’t get anything that would otherwise be obtained by playing (gear, skill unlocks).

      In other words, you’ll effectively be like a level 80 character who hadn’t bothered to do any skill challenges or upgrade his gear since level 20 (or whatever your PvE level is).

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      I did like that your character played the same in PVE and WvW.  Not really crazy about how your character looked and played totally different in sPVP.   I know once you get your character to level 80, it will play the same.  I just found sPVP to be a totally different game than the rest of GW2.

  • 7BitBrian

    Honestly it’s going to be one huge set of mixed reactions. Some will not be able to adapt and will claim the game is broken. Others won’t like it as much but they’ll play. Some will find it strange but adapt to it. And even some will think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    It’s all personal preference. Some players like to be guided by the hand, some don’t. Some players like a gear grind progression system, some don’t. Etc….

    It’s not the game for everybody, no game is the game for everybody. It is however; the game for me!

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      Yep, I agree.  Some people will simply prefer a gear-based system and that’s perfectly acceptable.

    • H S

       Totally agree. This is not a game for everyone. What I like is that so far everyone that does like it, is the kind of people I want to play with. Most of those who hate the game, are the people I tried to avoid all these years. For example, EVE is a pretty cool game, but the community is everything I never want to be associated with, same can be said about Tera.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      But, that’s not how this game is being presented. It being presented as the perfect game for everyone and if you enjoy another type of MMO you are a “bad” person or “bad” player.

      • Arkanthos

        Those that are presenting it like this are delusional, Anet never said their game is perfect.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rasmus.nielsen.75491 Rasmus Nielsen

    I find it amusing that the people here at gamebreaker call people from WoW veteran MMO players. However, I think in regards to the game itself, a Skill based and Cosmetic based gear progression system will be much better in the long run, and help the developers create balance.

    The idea that there is no end-game because you can’t grind mindlessly at something for some advantage over others, is a flawed and terrible mindset. If you need to be better geared and equipped than someone to beat them, the issue clearly is not with the game. In the end, however,  flat lined end-game gear creates something that a gear-based progression system does not.

    It creates variety, it creates choice, if the only reason to wear a different suit of armor is because you *like* the way it looks, you’re suddenly given loads more options and choice, than when you’re funneled into Raid Scenario X, for Set Y that looks exactly the same as everyone elses gear, creating a world of thousands of carbon copies of eachother, in both gear and in specs (I’ll not go into the fact, that optimizing will happen in every game, no matter if it’s gear or skill based, because thats just how human nature is.)

    There is not any POSITIVE way in which a gear Based progression system is better than a Skill and Cosmetic based one. None, and people who defend it are people who don’t want to *be* better players, but just *be better* than “the others”, a terrible mindset to encourage.

  • http://www.facebook.com/andrew.koz Andrew Koz

    Thoughtful article, but I would be curious to see how it pans out in the end (like everybody else). If you played the original guild wars you would know that not EVERY build works for every situation, but there were builds of both skills and gear that did make the game generally easier just because they had more room for error. It might not be intended, but I would expect something like this to show up in Guild Wars 2. It could sound scary to people not used to it, and it probably will be for the first few weeks; but once people start figuring things out and posting builds on forums, I would expect that to change. It isn’t the same thing, but gear in WoW could be compared to skill builds in Guild Wars. Also speaking towards the idea that some people might be put off by not being able to get statistically better gear, item skins found in higher level dungeons could end up conveying skill because they are harder to get. If you see a guy walk by in this crazy cool helm that you know you can only get by killing a near impossible boss, you’ll recognize that he is skilled and you’ll probably be that much happier when you get your own. It might be more of an accomplishment for that person because it wont need to be replaced and will scale with new content that comes out. That’s just my thoughts, and I don’t know if it’ll happen like this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      Regarding the items, people probably shouldn’t put too much meaning into that. Assuming you can’t trade the tokens or use tokens from a different dungeon(I thought ANet said you would be able to use tokens from different dungeons interchangeably). There is always the option of paying 4 other people to run you through the dungeon.

      People did similar things in GW1 for missions.

      • http://www.facebook.com/andrew.koz Andrew Koz

        Hmmmm, I could definitely be wrong, but I was under the impression that each dungeon had its own specific set of gear that could could only get from that dungeon. Again, I’m not sure if thats the case, so I cant say for sure. But yeah, there were a lot of people that ran dungeons for people and that did diminish the value for certain sets of gear. I’d be curious to see if this is possible in GW2 since I’ve heard dungeons are harder. Chances are we’ll probably end up seeing speed runs and whatnot though haha……gota get dem bone dragon staffs! 

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

          I might be mixing it up with the stuff about Karma from DEs and the bit about not having to rely on the RNG for dungeon drops.

          For a 5 person dungeon I *KNOW* there are people that are going to be able to do it with 4. It might require a specific set of builds on specific professions but it will happen.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            You really think GW2 players are going to grind through dungeons over and over again? Once they beat a dungeon and get their cosmetic gear, why would they go back?

          • dawolv

             If it’s fun they will, if it’s not they won’t bother with them to begin with.

            I’m not that big a PvE Player, but I clocked in over 1000h of TF2 on my Steam, about 1/3 of it competitive matches (ETF2L, Pick ups). Do you know how often I played Granary? It’s still fun to me.

            Just as I can repeat that type of content over and over BECAUSE ITS FUN, other people will find enjoyment in doing dungeons for the majority of their time in GW2.

            Everyone looking for an incentive to play after 2 months of playing the game either has a serious case of attention defecit dissorder or just doesn’t like playing MMO’s as much as gear-grind games have made them believe.

            When you realize that when the gear grind as an incentive was the only incentive you had to beginn with, maybe you should start playing, pf.. I don’t know, Dota2…

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Not me, I’m having too much fun in GW2 WvW.  Now there’s a game that is not gear focused and you have incentives and objectives.  My only concern with WvW, it may turn out to be pay to win, with all the siege engines.

            While I’m going to attempt the PVE content, I got no illusions that it will have more than a few months of content and not very confident it will have repeatable group play. 

            TF2, that game just sounds like fun to play and i’m not playing no DOTA2.   

          • Old Ben

            TFC actually had better gameplay (TF2 is far more random, with very frequent 1-shot kills), but TF2 looks much better and is probably easier for beginners (since you’ll get a lot of lucky kills even before you’re any good at it).

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

             Heh … you will find me chopping lots and lots of trees. Maybe I secretly want to be a lumberjack.

            Isn’t Dota2 even LESS content?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

             I don’t know why THEY will go back but *I* will go back because that is where all the traps are. This means they are the perfect place for murdering friends. ;)

  • Sharuko

    Very good article but I disagree with a lot of points.  Horizontal progression is great, but in an MMO you need vertical progression.  It is really not an either/or issue, ideally a MMO should have both horizontal and vertical progression.  MoP does this really well for PvE with their challenge modes.

    MMOs need to walk a fine line, if all an MMO has is horizontal progression it becomes exactly like the games you listed in your examples.  They become LoL, they become Street Fighter and they become Mortal Kombat (at max level).  I play an MMO to play an MMO, I don’t play an MMO to play what is essentially LoL or Battlefield at max level.  If I wanted to do that I would play those games. GW2 could have tackled this by having PvP based on horizontal progression but PvE based on vertical progression.

    Vertical progression helps with the community feel.  Players log in more to “grind” to do their dailies to farm gold, to farm gear.  Vertical progression is one of the reasons people stay logged on for a long time.  A MMO can be excellent but will feel “bad” when no one is around and servers are empty. Which is why I don’t think GW2 has longevity for the masses.

    Pure horizontal progression invites a lot of super casual players that eventually might log in once a week, which is not a bad thing.  But ideally a game should have all types of players, again to make the “world” feel alive.

    An MMO without vertical progression essentially becomes a MOBA.  I don’t know about you but I prefer my MMOs to be MMOs.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=506728308 Julian F’n Mugnieco

      I think the point about horizontal v. vertical progression is valid, and yes horizontal is prominent of the stage of GW2. That being said, vp isn’t non-existent in GW2. Yes, players are scaled up to lvl 80 with appropriate stats, and yes gear caps out at a certain point(?), but that does not mean that someone who is lvl 10 will default to the same stats as someone who has been lvl 80 for a month. The scaling is very much the same as in SWTOR, and is nothing ‘new’.

      We’ll see vertical progression with expansions throughout, and with the recent rumours/info about the size of the GW2 world, there should be plenty of those. 

      Realistically through i kind of feel like Anet is banking on players being intrigued by their first few levels of gameplay, so that by the time they hit 80 they are hooked.

      Personally, I enjoy this type of hybrid progression system; remember there are a plethora of sets to get @80, though may have similar stats. I for one will prefer being stomped into the ground by someone legitimately better than me, than someone who crushed me becuase i didnt have full t3 and dual Salty Sticks of Wondrous Fantasicalness…ness. 

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

        There doesn’t have to be a vertical progression just because there is an expansion, see EotN.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Lazarowitz/100000420795554 Steve Lazarowitz

          I don’t know about you,. but I got a LOT more powerful after EotN. Technobabble, pain inverter, ebon vanguard assassin support, all new skills that I got a lot of use out of…I don’t know if you’d call that vertical progression but I would. It certainly made clearing content easier.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            I forgot about the PvE only skills. I also consider those to be mistakes. They started adding those in Factions. Hopefully the fact that racial skills are weaker but more flavorful versions of regular skills means they’ve learned from their mistake.

            Making overpowered monsters and then giving people overpowered skills just results in power creep which is generally undersirable.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        ooooo…  Where do the “Salty Sticks of Wondrous Fantasicalness” drop?

    • Dominic Matte

      You’re missing the point.

      ArenaNet doesn’t want you to log in every day because you have to in order to keep up. They want you to log in every day because you’re having so much fun you can’t stop playing.

      Besides, the vertical progression is still there, but it’s been shifted from your character to your own skills. Many players (and ANet) believe it’s more fulfilling to gain power by increasing your skill level rather than because you happened to have the time/money to get the newest gear.

      If you’re looking for the same old MMO formula, then GW2 is not the game for you.

      • Old Ben

        > You’re missing the point.

        You must be new here.

    • rob weik

      You missed the memo. MMOs are for a niche market now. Player retention is simply getting worse and not better. Buy it like a console game and play it like a console game. Currently in MMOs players are playing it like a console but arent paying for simply the box. In most cases.

      Not saying your wrong here in your opinions or perceptions but MMOs are losing the long battle. The same masses that will not enjoy the longevity of GW2 also dont enjoy grinding gear or dailies.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

       I love having to do daily quests to get gold to upgrade gear… oh wait, no I don’t.  That’s why I quit playing WoW and SWTOR.  Paying a sub to do dailies day in and day out and claiming that’s “engaging game play” is shameful.

      Vertical progression in GW2 is pointless.  No scaling/tiered raiding.  If there was, then maybe you’d have a point, but GW1 seems to have just fine without it.  (“Fine does not mean “WoW Killer”, it just means fine)

    • Dennis Ryan

      The definition of an MMO isn’t vp + hp.  You’re point is only half valid.  There are a lot people that play MMO’s for the grinding and farming, but not nearly as many as you think.  It’s just been that way so long people think it is normal now.  But I would bet you would be surprised at the number of players that despise the grind/farm dynamic.  GW2 still lets you farm for things if you want to (rare item skins for example), they just don’t let those things give you a stat advantage.  Coming from someone who used to waste eons of time playing an MMO, and now can’t, it’s really a rediculous notion that time should somehow equate to power.  Time should equate to skill if anything.

      I mean, if you have football practice twice as much as the other team, or spend twice as much money on equipment, they don’t let you wear rocket shoes at the game.  You should beat them because you are simply better and more skilled than them.  It’s basic fair play rules at work here really.  Getting rid of gear-dominant pvp is a long overdue idea which should be embraced, not vilified.  And the only way to ensure that is by destroying the old gear-grind system.

      My advice to anyone starting GW2 on August 28th: don’t try to level, don’t try to farm, don’t try to be the first, or get the most, or have the best, or whatever else drives players to constantly move forward like a stampede of dolyaks running into a wall(max lvl).

      Relax…

      Turn the sound up…

      And lose yourself in the GW2 world…you won’t regret it.

      • Sharuko

        Yet WoW is still the most popular MMO and will be after GW2 for years.  And games like SWTOR and Rift are also very popular. Not to mention new MMOs like Tera and TSW.

        I guess people don’t despise vertical progression as much you think they do? GW2 hasn’t proven itself and we will know by Dec ’12 how this experiment works out.  My estimation has always been 60% to 70% of the launch population will be gone by end of November.

        About your last few paragraphs.  Yeah ideally every company says that, “don’t farm”, “don’t try to be first” etc etc.  But at the end of the day we are all gamers and that is what we do.  If you think that will change you are in for a huge surprise at release.  These Utopian views are nice and all but that is never the reality.

        • Dennis Ryan

          “But at the end of the day we are all gamers and that is what we do.”

              I don’t do that, nor do a lot of people like me.  Yeah I tried farming once to see what the fuss was about, but hated it.  I don’t care if others do, knock yourself out, just don’t make me do it to be relavant.  Farming/grinding, much like pvp, should be an option and not an absolute.  This elitist bullshit about how I need to spend x amount of time/money for y amount of gear/rep is not just offensive, but recockulous. 
              And it is a reality, people do it all the time on games.  It’s not about being utopian, or soft, or hippy, or rainbows-and-unicorns-I-wanna-hold-your-hand crap.  It’s about being reasonable.  And fun.  Remember fun?  I do, I’ve missed it.  I’m not saying GW2 will hands-down deliver that, but at least they are making a valiant effort to.  And that’s more than can be said for most other games.

        • Spammerbam

          ‘”GW2 hasn’t proven itself and we will know by Dec ’12 how this experiment
          works out.  My estimation has always been 60% to 70% of the launch
          population will be gone by end of November.’”

          —- Seems pretty clear that you haven’t played GW1; the game was able to retain a large player base for almost 7 years. It actually grew larger post-release because of the PvP and complex skill-base system — its PvP was ranked second to WoW and that’s pretty good for a small game.

    • Spammerbam

       You do have a point, BUT everything that you’ve mentioned is what ArenaNet is trying to avoid.
        The majority of players are tired of the grinding and the vertical progression by now; having to spend more than half of your time grinding for gears just to be able to play the next content difficulty is very tedious.

       GW2 is aiming to be a casual game; you can leave and come back whenever you want. 
      But being casual doesn’t mean that everything is easy to get, there are some things you have to work for as well. This brings me to what you said:

      “‘Pure horizontal progression invites a lot of super casual players that eventually might log in once a week, and might treat GW2 as a “side” game, which is not a bad thing.  But ideally a game should have all types of players, again to make the “world” feel alive.”‘

      —- Definitely. If you’ve played GW1, the game was able to maintain a reasonable amount of players even after 7 years. There was plenty of things to achieve and some that takes longer than others; getting to the top is not an easy task, so this works out for players who like to be grindy.
      With GW2 being more of a persistent “world”, it will definitely feel more alive. And so far, the game does a great job at it. Even when playing alone, you’ll see monsters, npcs and animals fighting each other; npcs move around, talk to each other and some are able to revive you nearby.

    • http://www.facebook.com/nate.monteil.5 Nate Monteil

      You do have a point but I think that if we keep on with these “norms” there will be no space for growth in the MMO space. We need successes like WoW that are massive juggernauts of MMO goodness but as a genre we also have to have our Rifts, SW:TOR, and GW2 this causes the genre as a whole to grow and expand and meets the needs of as many types of MMO gamers as possible. It also drives a bit of competition to make the existing games better. 

  • Joey Biggs

    Yeaaaaaaaaaaa Bog Otter in the house!

  • http://twitter.com/Nathiest Nathiest

    End Game will always be about gear. Period. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Lazarowitz/100000420795554 Steve Lazarowitz

      End game is only about gear to people who think that MMOs are mainstream. Most games are NOT about gear. Most gamers don’t play MMOs. As more and more nonMMO players get into MMOs the MMO end game will change.
      Anyone who says anything is forever, is almost definitely wrong.

      • http://twitter.com/Naqaj Naqaj

        That’s the problem, when non-MMO gamers get into the genre, they are told “it’s all about gear and end-game”, and since they don’t know better, they believe it. It was the huge influx of non-MMO gamers that shifted the genre TOWARDS gear grind, not away from it.

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          There is no end game in GW2 PVE, there is only the point where you hit the wall and can’t progress anymore. I’ll be surprised if Arenanet publishes a game where all players can get through all the dungeons and experience all the content.

    • ChyloVG

      So you were trained to think end game = gear in a P2P MMO. Think about that for a second.

  • http://www.facebook.com/daniellesylvie Sylv Taylor

    Touching on reflexes and disability: I am legally blind, which in terms of gaming means that I play with my nose to my laptop screen, I have difficulty tracking some movement, I can’t always distinguish a mob from its background (this is critically bad in lava-based environments), and I have little to no peripheral vision. I also have to keep my monitor’s brightness settings at the absolute minimum because I’m allergic to light (hence the vision damage).

    I was able to play GW2 pretty well, including in PvP, and keep up. This might make the PvP sound too easy, but note that I was playing ranked PvP in WoW well, and also in GW1. It just takes some practice to learn how to move, what skills you and other classes will use, and becoming familiar with the maps you’re moving on. Being able to kite while casting skills is HUGE, because even if you’re a little slow while you’re learning, you can move and dodge away.

    My biggest problems were in some night areas in Kessex with black-clad bandits. I sometimes needed my roomie to alert me if there were some behind me or to the side. But I found that that got better as I learned the zone.Anyway, a game like Guild Wars 2 might seem daunting to folks with disabilities (in my case, visual disabilities), but with practice, I think many people can adapt and even excel. It’s a great feeling when I’m keeping up with fully-able players, and fantastic when I can beat them in PvP, especially when they’re good.

  • tommythepower

    PvP will be about skill is awesome ! sadly GW2 will have issues with no raid or progression, wont be many weeks in after doing the public events people will be bored. And those who claim dungeons will be hard etc sry but no same thing, all classes can do everything, will be hell to balance and after a few weeks everyone will run around in the same 3 specs.Now i know this is hard to accept for the massiveli fanboys/girls who do everything they can to promote this game but the trith is the truth. I think gw2 will be a good solo game, not like one need to be in a guild while playing.A bunch of events and dungeons were everyone can heal/dps/tank. And from we know now with the MT system it looks like Arena net will be greedy.But as i said, the only thing that stands out as a great thing in the game in PvP based on skills not gear.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jonathan.hornsby.7 Jonathan Hornsby

       

      Actually everyone cannot do everything. Everyone can do
      the same types of things, but the actual mechanics and tools available to each
      class are different. For example both a warrior and a guardian can play
      support, but the actual builds for that are very, very, very different because
      they are each trying to do it with different tools. That said, having played
      both betas and both stress tests, there are no tank/heal/dps specs in the game.
      It actually isn’t allowed. Finally the MT isn’t greedy in the least, no $20
      sparkle dragons here.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        I am a little concerned that WvW will be pay to win. You dont make enough gold during WvW to pay for repairs and purchase Siege Engine Blueprints.  If all you are planning to play is WvW, your going to need to buy gems to exchange for gold for repairs/blueprints.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      No, the greedy ones are the people who expect everything to be free. The only thing that could count as required are character slots for those who want one of everything.

  • Artemis Frost

    Honestly who likes gear based progression in any game? Grinding is only needed when there is a literal NEED  for it, I hate wasting my time doing the same old crap over and over again to have an unspecified chance at getting *in most instances* a token to save up for a another piece of equipment that for some reason is statistically better then another. The whole vertical progression is a load of BS and every knows it, especially when games like WoW and Sw:Tor who are just fishing for sub length extend dailies and what not to get your gear; who is stupid enough to fall into the trap of wasting their time grinding these things only to realise “oh I have wasted all my time doing this and now I don’t have enough time to actually play content I want to play”. I welcome the change in GW2, I thoroughly support it, the article makes some very good points. 

    Ultimately it comes down to your personal preference, I like skill based games not gear based games so I will play GW2 like I did GW1, 

    • dawolv

       ”Content you want to play” is absent in those games too.
      Once you acquire all necessary set pieces of gear there isn’t much left to do and everything you’ve done before becomes extremely trivial

    • Morturion

       I never liked the gear-grinding either. Real life has enough things that are boring and need to be done daily (work, keeping your living space clean, making dinner …) so why play a game that makes you do the same things with even less variation for no real gain, in your relaxing-time no less !

  • http://www.MasterRenny.com/ Thomas Renshaw

    Oddly enough i was wondering about this to myself a few days ago and i think its good that you don’t need to grind gear to be able to get in and not feel like your “behind” in progression due to people having better gear and just smashing your face in and you having no chance!

  • Jado Cast

    Great article Richie.  For those GW players that started at launch will remember that it was a difficult game past level 20 when prophecies was the only campaign/chapter available.  It was rage quitting hard if you were a PUG going through the game trying to beat sorrow’s, FOW, UW, etc.  No doubt after the introduction of Heroes and new skills from the new campaigns, the game increasingly became easier for PUG’s or solo artists.  It would not surprise me if the level of difficulty at level 80 will be the same in GW2.  

    I totally get what you are saying about aging reflexes (I myself can’t play Halo in my advanced age like I could in my 20′s), so I can imagine it will be worse as I get older (sucks to get old :-) .  My two best friends and my wife all get motion sickness playing FPS games or any game where the camera moves quickly so I sympathize with that as well.

    I have no doubt that skill will most definitely separate the really good players in GW2, and you will see those folks rise to the top quickly in PvP.  Those folks that can craft builds and play at a high level, like Ed Parks, will do very well.  But I think Anet has made the game so focused on Fun, unforced grouping, and casual approach that even those with a lower skill level will still find enjoyment with the game.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      I really dont think many people understand how hard GW2 is going to be.   While players call for harder MMOs, when they get them the players leave in droves.   The question is can you really get higher skilled players to run higher level content for more than a few weeks.

      • Jado Cast

        I agree, but I think they will have enough content to go around for even the casual players, so they won’t feel compelled to run higher level content or rage quit.  

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002811083296 Lauren Michele

      Wow, I thought I was very alone in my motion sickness being crippling in some games.  I don’t know anyone else that suffers from it.  In many games I’m fine.  In some, it’s unbearable for long periods of time.  Good to know I’m not crazy or alone.  I still love me some MMOs and can’t wait for GW2.  It’s been a long time in coming

      • Old Ben

        I’m pretty much immune to visual motion sickness, but I know that one of GW2′s “features” (camera smoothing) causes nausea and headaches to a lot of people. They really need to include an option to disable that and just move the camera immediately when people move the mouse, like most games do.

        Even better, add an option to have “camera aim” on by default (i.e., move the mouse to move the camera, and hold down the right mouse button to _show_ the cursor). I spend far more time in camera look mode than in free cursor mode, so it’s a PITA (well, a PITF) to have to keep the mouse button pressed all the time.

        • Jado Cast

          Good Info.  

      • Jado Cast

        Yeah, I think this is more common than people talk about.  Like Old Ben says, it depends on how the camera moves around that can cause it.

      • http://twitter.com/HarmonBlues Harmon

        While not epileptic, I can get sick from lots of strobing and flashing. Heavy motion blur doesn’t sit well with me either and I’m very sensitive to low FOV (which plagues the slew of games ported to PC from consoles).

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      I don’t remember Sorrow’s Furnace being all that difficult but I’ve probably stopped pugging at that point.

      FoW and UW has more challenges but I think some of that is just from bad design. No amount of skill is going to help with suicidal AI during an escort mission that fails if any of the suicidal AI dies. -_-

  • http://www.facebook.com/brucebronx Bruce Negron

    Great article, I am glad they are doing away with gear based progression. I always find that I have just wasted my life when an expansion comes out and makes all the gear I just got obsolete. The I have to start from zero again, and adding insult to injury I must quest and re-level my toon. It’s a poor attempt to keep people playing but it has been the death of many MMO.

  • EndrzGame

    Great article Richie. You’ve sparked some very good conversations here in the comments.
    For me personally I’ve been waiting a long time for a game like GW2. An on-line world that I can just explore and conquer at my own pace rather than logging in everyday trying to keep up with everyone through gear progression. I played that game for awhile, I’m ready for something new. So far in the two BWE’s that I’ve played Arenanet seems to be delivering on what they’ve promised. Can’t wait for 8/25.
    Hope to see more articles from you in the future!

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      Thank you.  I appreciate the feedback.  I’m really looking forward to the pacing of GW2 as well.  Don’t need to rush or feel like you’re falling behind.  I think it’s going to feel refreshing.

  • P V

    Lets hope there are enough people who enjoy the break from needing to farm gear :) . Until they find the Mystic forge ;)

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      Still going to need to farm gear unless all the high end ones are ugly. The forge’s uncertainty is going to dry me crazy …

  • Cer Meir

    Wonderful article! Guild Wars was the first MMO I ever played. I enjoyed how in PvP if you lost, it was because the other person was simply better then you.  No gear disparity, plain and simple, they were just more skilled. It removed so much unnecessary drama from the game. I was shocked when I played WoW, Rift, Aion, TOR, at how much drama arouse just because someone lost in PvP.  It was also extremely disheartening when you did a dungeon daily for months but were never lucky enough to get THAT special piece. Guild Wars 2 feels like a game that I can enjoy and maintain a social life outside of game successfully.  lol

  • http://twitter.com/leoereemhd Leo e Re em HD

    everything hes writing and saying is already known for a long time , i mean , do we really need another article like this one? They were saying wonderfull things about GW2 for a long time until the pre purchase hit. After pre purchase though they kinda pulled the handbreake and now they are not sure how this game is going to be received ?  come on !  It sounds like these guys were being paid by Anet , thats what it seems to me.

    • Old Ben

      > everything hes writing and saying is already known for a long time

      Known by whom? By you? Don’t read the article, then. Problem solved.

      News articles in general are aimed primarily at people looking for information about a given subject. If you think you already have that information, you can simply go read something else.

      > It sounds like these guys were being paid
      > by Anet , thats what it seems to me.

      And since that was your first (and so far only) post here, I’m going to assume you’re being paid by Blizzard and EA.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mert.matthews.3 Mert Matthews

    Don’t know about you guys but when i race to get with my guild to get server first or world first i want to get (or lose it) because we couldn’t adapt and/or learn fast enough, not because we or other team had more time to grind gear in the past 

  • MysticLlamaMan

    Gear grinding to be able to do new content has got to be the most boring and frustrating design in an MMO.  I started MMO’s with Ultima Online and got to go from a nice sandbox world to the epitome of theme parked “Do things in this order, hurry hurry hurry, now old content is irrelevant.”  games that was WoW.  Looking forward to actually being able to play an MMO again where I can focus on the social and exploration aspects instead of feeling rushed along to ‘endgame’ by my peers.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Shawna-Daniels/1135007726 Shawna Daniels

    Great article BogOtter! I also look forward to the new style of GW2, long time since the gear treadmill has been fun and rewarding. Look forward to reading more articles by you as you’re my favorite member of Guildcast.
      I look forward to seeing what GW2 has in store for us at endgame. Even if there isn’t much beyond what we think there might be, WvW will satisfy and be fun until new content/expansions come out. I can only imagine how great any expansions would be since they don’t have to cater to power creep. Even new WvW maps! It’s all about fun and having a good time with the guild and the other players in the world anyways. There would be times I was out in PvE and WvW in beta where I was 10-15 levels behind in gear, but it didn’t even matter and I wasn’t obsessed with getting new gear all the time like in other games.

    GBTV, hurry up and post yesterday’s Guildcast as I wasn’t able to watch it live last night!

  • Ovatha

    It’s about time we have a REAL MMO.  Let them be shocked by not getting MORE GEAR.  OMG, I can’t collect pixels.  OMG I have to learn to play my character?

    I think many people will have a hard time with GW2 because it will cause them to actually play their characters vs. allowing AddOns and Mods play the game for them.  Too many people are use to WOW EZ Mode that GW2 is going to make them cry, especially when they have to pay attention.

    No end-game?  WvW is all you need for end-game.  It’s a constant battle.  If people are too self-centered to realize what WvW is about, I hope they leave GW2.  WvW isn’t for the faint at heart.  It’s the closest thing I’ve seen to DAOC’s New Frontiers in a long time.  You WOW/Alterac Valley monkeys are going to suck something fierce when you have to fight and defend against players on a regular basis.

    That being said, the PvE content that I experienced was some of the best I’ve played (best because it wasn’t easy), and I didn’t set foot in a dungeon/instance.  However, it has me wanting to see what they’ve done for the dungeon/instance content.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      Is WoW really THAT easy? You guys are making it sound like I could get through the game while sleeping.

      • Ovatha

        WOW is far easier now than when it started.  There isn’t a challenge in the game anymore.  It’s just a virtual treadmill for loot with no real character progression.  I’m sure there is an AddOn/Mod out there that will allow you to get through WOW while sleeping if you look for it, because there are people that bot WOW.

        While Blizzard doesn’t condone botting, the fact that there are so many other AddOns, mods, macros that allow you to not have to pay attention means YES, it’s that easy.  There are many other reasons that make WOW easy, it’s a long list.  I’m sure if you search the interwebs there is a list somewhere.

      • Iwerks

        Yes, WoW is a very simple, highly gear-influenced game. With sufficient gear, the content becomes trivial – enemy mechanics don’t need to be mastered because you can brute-force through the mechanics. Every expansion has pursued this avenue of “ease through gearing” to a greater extent.

        From personal experience, the final boss of 3.3 (HLK) took my team months to get. Even with optimized gear and the 30% buff of the environment, the encounter was still incredibly difficult for our 10-strict guild to manage. Certain classes and specs were required to have any amount of success.

        Cut to 4.3, and the final boss of this expansion (H Madness) took only a couple weeks to master. Optimal gear didn’t even matter; the environmental buff was only at 15%. Now, with the buff sitting at 25%, we can complete all the encounters while being a man short. And this is supposed to be the hardest content in the game – way above regular dungeons or open-world PvE. Most classes can get through most open-world quests without using any special abilities – just walk around and auto-attack or spam fireball.

      • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

        I’m going to say no…..it’s really not THAT easy.  But over time you can outgear things and Blizzard nerfs content to make it accessible…so it becomes easier.  There are various different difficulty levels of raiding and players need a lot of skill and knowledge to be a heroic raider.  You have to put a lot of time in practicing, working together with your raid group and studying the mechanics of your class to set up your gear, spec and learn how to utilize your abilities.  

        With that said…..while you’re leveling up, you’re almost never in peril.  The leveling up experience is very safe.  And some of the boss fights don’t require you to move much at all.  So combat in GW2 feels a bit more active.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

          but can you be over geared/leveled for whatever is the current max level content? Something that you wouldn’t be able to outlevel OR outgear until an expansion comes out with higher level stuff.

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          There is that one variable that strikes when you least expect it, getting ganked by the oposing WoW faction.  Never know when that will happen.   

          I do love the combat in GW2, very fun and entertaining. What I am doing is leveling my Charr Elementalist in WvW and then returning to PVE to experience the content.  With the talents and build I’m developing in WvW, I have a high degree of survivabliity.  Once you develop the skills and build necesary to dodge Arrow Carts, the NPC AI are not that hard.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        No its not that easy.  But, it really depends on when you attempt the content.

        If your raid team is really, really highly skilled, you clear the normal content the first week it comesout.  But that is a really small number of players.  You then tackle the heroic modes using the previous tiers gear.   I think for the Dragon Soul raid, it was Spine of Deathwing was the progression barrier.  With heroic Madness of Deathwing (final boss) being a bit easier.

        With the rest of us, (I am not even close to being a hardcore raider) it’s all about progression.  Working on your skills, learning the mechanics and gathering the gear. It all helps with with progression.  If you wait for raids to get fully geared, everyone has mastered the mechanics and for Blizzard to nerf the content into the ground, it should be easy.  For WoW you get what you wait for. If you wait long enough, it becomes easysause.

        For GW2 it should be really interesting, I would expect a very small playerbase will clear the content very quickly.  The question is will it take a week or several weeks for this to occur.

        For the rest of the GW2 playerbase, it will be interesting to see how many players will really want to complete all the dungeons and of this playerbase how many will never complete the content because they simply don’t have the skill.  Does Arenanet have a history of nerfing content after a period of time? Or is it by design, only a small percentage of players will ever see the final content at the highest level of difficulty.

             

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

          Well there were some lv60+ people by the end of the last BWE. These people are going to hit lv80 before September. 5 dungeons, 3 paths each … I give them until September 15 to clear all of it. Unless they decided to add 3 copies of the Foundry of Failed Creations -_-

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Will be fun finding out what players actually do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/drakewurrum Alex Matthew Marsh

    To add on to what you said about physical limitations, I know of an Enhancement Shaman raider in WoW… who is 100% blind. Literally. He was in Iraq, grenade shrapnel took his eyes. The way he does it is he actually has a second member of the raid who is basically his seeing-eye dog. The two weren’t even real-life buddies, but he took up the job of being the seeing-eye dog and the pair have proven to be really amazing. This player would not be able to play Guild Wars 2 at all, but… there’s not really anything that could be done about that, short of somebody inventing special implants to connect directly to his brain, ala Geordi La Forge.

  • http://www.facebook.com/drakewurrum Alex Matthew Marsh

    Well, maybe it could be managed. I can’t even fully fathom how the two pull that off in WoW, but I don’t see how they could function without DBM timers and other mods helping him out.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1376002417 Moneey Munni

    I am so very much looking forward to this game.  Having participated in all of the open betas so far, I can say that this game has A LOT to offer that other MMO’s simply lack.  The level of cooperation that this game encourages is such a breath of fresh air.  There’s no competing for resources, kills, experience, etc., and in fact, there’s a significant advantage to helping other players.

    I do love the challenge of the game…and feel that people should be rewarded for their level of skill.  It makes the game significantly more fun.  However with that said, because of the high level of cooperation this game offers, it’s easy enough for a player with a low skill level to join into an event with skilled players and still complete quests and enjoy the entire experience.  And if they should end up dying…anyone can and WILL rez when its opportune.  Personally, with the level of cooperative game-play available and the willing-to-help attitude that this game fosters, a skill ceiling is truly a moot point in terms of being able to enjoy the game.  

    I think the main hang up people have is that they’re not going to be UBER anymore just because of the gear.  I feel the gear progression has allowed for too many unskilled and lazy players to easily move through content and be carried by more skilled players.  This ultimately diminishes the experience for skilled players when they have to deal with these overgeared, laissez-faire players who rest on the laurels of their gear versus actually trying to be better players.  

    With that said, WoW was very challenging in vanilla but had way too much grinding.  Burning Crusade was a blast!  Wrath of the Lich King was still fun, but that’s when the dumbing down started happening.  Cataclysm has just been a downward cycle…and that’s when I stopped playing because I lost all hope for WoW.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dominique.chalmers.9 Dominique Chalmers

     the thing about gear base systems that i do not like is that it limits good player who just do not have the time or are unlucky when it come to getting gear. I know people (me included) who knew their class, looked up builds, watched video for boss strategies, and were extremely competent players. However would struggle to get the loot they need because it didn’t drop or they only had time to come on during raid night. And because they could not get the loot they got locked out of content they were skilled enough for.

    that is why i am glad A-net chose this system, now competent players  that do not have the free time(because of school, work, children, ect.) or are unlucky with drops do not have to worry about being left behind.

  • http://www.facebook.com/davie.walraad Davie Walraad

    You seem to assume GW2 is the first game to try it without level and gear progression.
    You are wrong…
    Star Wars Galaxies started out like that as well. It turned out that being able to ‘just’ play the game instead of progress through the game worked wonders on getting people in but was less effective at keeping them in.

    Well, lets hope for the best.

  • http://twitter.com/Pross182 Pross182

    I’m sure it was probably mentioned but. A little less than 2 months? Me thinks you’re thinking about WoW

  • Aaron Garcia

    Gear not mattering worked out so swimmingly for AoC….how could it possibly fail again? 

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Genre: MOBA
Developer: Riot
Metacritic Score: 78