Gold For Sale

Gold farmers, prepare to weep.

ArenaNet President Mike O’Brien outlined the company’s philosophy regarding microtransactions in Guild Wars 2 today, and there was much to talk about. O’Brien outlined how using real money purchases is important for the ongoing development of the game, as well as how they will be handled.

It was made very clear that microtransactions have been an important part of GW2‘s design from inception:

“But microtransactions were an afterthought in Guild Wars, whereas with Guild Wars 2, we had an opportunity to integrate the microtransaction system from the ground up, giving players more options and more convenience without sacrificing our design principles.”

Guild Wars 2 will be based on three currencies: gold, karma and gems. Gems are used to purchase microtransaction goods and can be exchanged for gold — or vice versa. This means that gold farmers are out of luck: Guild Wars 2 will not be the game for you.

This system is directly likened to PLEX  in EVE Online by O’Brien, which will ensure that players have a way to earn everything available in the microtransaction store in-game. It then becomes a choice: pay for it by buying gems for cash, or earn the gold to buy gems instead.

There will be controversy as the mention of gold trading in-game has a lot of negative connotations amongst the MMO community.

Personally, I think this is a great move by ArenaNet which will help reduce hacking, spamming and associated negative behavior linked with the RMT industry. I would be very interested to know your thoughts on the matter.

For all your Guild Wars 2 news, watch GuildCast each week on GAMEBREAKER.

A veteran MMO player of over 13 years, Scott is a writer, editor and educator with a passion for gaming. He can be found smiling blankly over his guardian in Guild Wars2, lane running in League of Legends, or pulling off audacious headshots in Battlefield 3. Scott is Editor In Chief for ZAM and a regular co-host on GuildCast.
  • MMO_Doubter

    Disgusting.

    THERE is your saviour, ANet fans.

    No, Scott. The reason they are doing this is TO MAKE MORE MONEY.

    “Isn’t really a HUGE advantage.” – weasel words. Apologia.

    • http://tbergeron.com/ Tommy Bergeron

      Why disgusting?

      I mean, it sounds like a good idea, preventing gold selling and giving the possibility to grind for stuff you could buy if you don’t have the money. I mean there’s something for everyone in there, no?

    • http://twitter.com/MightySneaker Mike

       Yeah i see no problem with this, if someone want they can buy gems, for the cash shop, or they can sell the gems for gold and you for instance buy the gems with ingame gold and buy stuff from the casshop without actually paying real world money.

    • JJGlyph

      Changing your name doesn’t fool anyone Roger McKay. We’ve all seen you advertise your MMO Fringe MMO Doubter forum.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Have you got a point?

        • http://twitter.com/Hoigwai Hoigwai

          That you’re a troll.

    • ScottHawkes

       Of course they’re going to make money out of it MD, it seems a little redundant to mention that. And I don’t think it is any huge advantage at all. I’ll most likely not purchase much with cash, if anything. But I won’t feel disadvantaged by it.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Your words: “The reason they are doing this is to kill the gold farming external business”

        No.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

           Yes, The gold that is made from selling these gems will either be sunk into the game or spent at the trading post giving other players the gold they want.

          Who knows how much gems will be sold for, the ingame economy will decide. There will always be people making ridiculous sums of gold from playing the AH, and there will always be people farming gold for Mats.

          There will always be people willing to pay for their gold, giving it to a third party doesn’t help the developer. Giving the cash to Anet and then allowing the player economy to decide how much gold your gems are actually worth will stop third parties.
          And because gold isn’t the only resource, and more importantly, isn’t the major resource when buying gear (karma and the PvP resource will get you much better things than gold) gold will only get a player so far, if they want to be the best they actually have to play the game.

          And don’t just reply to somebodies comment with “no” if you have a point to make, then make it. Don’t just say “No.” and not even say why you disagree, this is why people give you hate on here.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Check the very first post in this thread. I made my reply to his statement there.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

      Oh Mr. McKay, you are such a clever fellow! Er, not really. Is it really that shocking that a company that is releasing a game that won’t require a monthly subscription is offering an option (key word is OPTION!) for players to purchase items in order for the company to make some extra revenue? Not that it matters because you will always have something negative to say no matter what the topic is. Of course, your opinions are completely worthless, but I don’t have to tell you that, or anyone else for that matter. And yes, YOU ARE A TROLL! 

  • Mikkel Thygesen

    Hmm…

    While I don’t like the idea all that much I don’t it’ll be a game-breaker (lol puns’R’fun) for me…

  • http://twitter.com/MorbiGames Morbi Games

    I played another game with a system almost identical to this….I think it was Runes of Magic, but I could be mistaken. What I do remember was enjoying playing the AH more than I have in any other MMO. Playing the “diamond market” was more exciting when I could spend it in the ingame store. I hope this works well for GW2.

  • http://twitter.com/Hoigwai Hoigwai

    I don’t have a problem with it, it doesn’t seem to have any of the tenets of pay to win. Leveling faster doesn’t make you better at pvp and since top gear is only available thru karma it won’t have an effect on relative player strength.

    • MMO_Doubter

       How do you get Karma?

      • http://twitter.com/Hoigwai Hoigwai

         Via quests (possibly other methods)if I recall, it is a non-transferable currency and the items received from it are bound.

        • MMO_Doubter

           Q: If they offer access to quests/dungeons for sale would that be selling karma for cash?

          The blog post stated that they would be selling “content”

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             I read the article… I don’t know how you came up with the assumption that they would be selling quests and dungeons. They will be selling expansions… Just like almost any other MMO.

          • Old Ben

            Expansions are “quests and dungeons” (in a pack). I definitely wouldn’t mind being able to buy individual zones and dungeons (that way I could wait for reviews and buy only the ones I wanted), but I doubt they’ll do that, since it makes storytelling and quest design a lot more complicated.

  • http://twitter.com/Hoigwai Hoigwai

    misspost

  • http://www.facebook.com/tony.golightly Tony Golightly

    the ways to express yourself will be Emotes. if i recall correctly, they sold certain emotes in the GW1 cash shop.

    • ScottHawkes

       Ah! Thanks Tony, I’d forgotten all about that. So busy it’s crazy — good job I have a cracking time.

    • Old Ben

      Damn, what happened to freedom of expression?!

  • lee long

    the economy will be balanced. Stop whinning. other MMO did this and the economy just fine

    • JJGlyph

      That’s not necessarily true. Go look at the Guild Wars 1 economy. It’s broken. I have over 1000 ectos and I don’t even farm. People don’t even play for the titles anymore, they just buy them.

      I’m not saying GW2 has to go the same route. Just that there is that danger.

      • MMO_Doubter

         MMOs are barely even games anymore. Games make you earn/win your rewards. These are just virtual storefronts.

        • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

           I suppose if you look at them that way… They aren’t games for *you*

        • Old Ben

          Games aren’t about “earning rewards” (that’s jobs and bounty hunting). Games are about having fun. People play games because they enjoy them. If you think a game is something that you must suffer through just to get some meaningless virtual “achievement” at the end, you’ve been doing it wrong.

  • JJGlyph

    I don’t think that it is better than third party RMT. Third Party RMT is against the terms of agreement. Which means 95%+ players won’t do it because they don’t want to risk getting their account banned. This system encourages gold buying.

    That being said… there is a low gear cap in this game. So, buying gold isn’t pay to win. Everyone in GW1 has max level gear. Same will be true after a couple months in GW2.

    There are two areas that concern me:

    1. WvW: Siege weapons cost gold + supply. Meaning teams can pay real money to get 50% of what they need. I’m not cool with that.

    2. Achievements: If they introduce titles that you can buy with gold I may consider passing on this game altogether. Achievement hunting is what I love to do in MMOs. If you can purchase achievements indirectly, I’ll move on to a better game.

    • MMO_Doubter

       If I had posted this, you (and others) would be calling me a troll.

      • JJGlyph

        The only reason you get hate here is because you spew hate. If you keep your tone objective I’d have no issue. Go take a look at your post history and the way you portray your thoughts.

        Here’s one example.

        “Disgusting.THERE is your saviour, ANet fans.”

        Saying things like that in a GW centric section is never going to gain you friends. Not sure why that is hard to understand.

        • MMO_Doubter

           I am not here to make friends OR enemies. Only to wake people up.

          • JJGlyph

            Then don’t be surprised when people call you a troll and other such things.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

            He’s right man. You need to be more… let’s say “diplomatic”. On a site that’s focused on MMOs and related news; if all you do is trash the games that they enjoy and are enthused about, what do you expect?

            You’re not “waking people up”. Please don’t have these delusions of grandeur; you aren’t some sort of gaming prophet. What you’re doing is expressing your opinion, I guess in exchange for some form of self-validation. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing; we’re all here for that, ultimately.

            Anyway, like JJGlyph says, if you were a little more objective, maybe bring up some positive points, and be less… destructive; in your criticisms, then you’d have perhaps you’d be subject to fewer accusations of trolling.

            P.S. I don’t think you are a troll, you do have some perfectly valid points.

          • Old Ben

            > P.S. I don’t think you are a troll

            You must be new here, then. ;-)

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Your ONLY purpose is to TROLL, period!

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             Poor guy… I’m not mad at you. I only reply to you to wake you up…

            See what I did there.

            JJ brought up a good point about WvW, but to me it’s kind of like people who farm all day to get tons of gold then buy the best gear they can afford. I think all gear should be earned, but hey, if someone wants to spend real time or money for in game items, it’s no big deal to me. As long as they can’t buy more powerful gear than I can achieve through effort… ANet should be able to make a decent amount by doing this, and I’m all for them getting paid.

            No subscription.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

      It’s true with the WvW, but there are people who will invest time to get gold, and some people who will invest money. I don’t think many people will buy gold and use it in PvP though, but it is an unfortunate side effect.

      The achievements thing is another thing, but i’m sure they will find a way to make it so either it isn’t a problem or it won’t be common. Some people are busy and are willing to spend money to save time.

      There are loads of ways to make gold without doing much, some people will work hard, and as they said in the vid, some people will play the auction house, some people might be willing to buy gems and get gold. I don’t think it’s a big problem, certainly not something that makes this game worse. It just evens the playing field for people who have lots of time vs people who have lots of money

      • MMO_Doubter

         And the people who have both will be gods.

        I prefer multiplayer games to treat people as equals.

        • http://twitter.com/Master10K Master10K

          Don’t see the issue when gold was easy enough for Press to come by, in a couple hours play. Also the majority of people buying gems would use them for account-based things and comestic items, rather than WvW seige equipment that’s pretty much a short use item.

          • MMO_Doubter

             People often play differently in beta, and MMO systems are often changed significantly between beta and release. mobs/classes being nerfed/buffed and xp rates being altered.

        • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

           How will they be “gods”… You gotta back up what you’re saying, or else you just look like a troll. You can only buy blueprints, you still have to work to gather supplies… What’s the big deal if a guy always has the ability to build something? Any serious WvW player will have gold set aside for blueprints.

          I could make a valid argument to support your case, but I’m not going to do that for you. Let’s see your thoughts…

          • MMO_Doubter

            Obviously “gods” is an exaggeration. They will have the double benefit of playing more and spending money in the cash shop.

            I have often seen the excuse that a cash shop balances the casual and hardcore player, but since there is no limitation on the cash shop for the hardcore players, that is not sound logic.

          • 7BitBrian

             Except that they can only buy gold when a player is willing to pay gold for gems.

            So sure they can spend some money and buy some gems with the purpose of selling them. But if none of use want any gems right now, I’ve got what I need from them, who exactly is he going to sell them to?

            It’s a player run market, we determine the in game gold value of gems.

          • MMO_Doubter

             The game will be designed so that LOTS of people want the stuff that gems can buy.

            ANet would be pretty stupid to sell gems without making them very desirable.

          • Old Ben

            > since there is no limitation on the
            > cash shop for the hardcore players,
            > that is not sound logic.

            Yeah, soon those rich bastards will be wearing five helmets, six swords and riding three mounts at the same time to go faster! 

            Oh, wait, it doesn’t work like that…

            As long as the items in the cash shop are no better than what you can get in the game, then “hardcore players” won’t have any reason to buy them (because, being “hardcore players”, they already have better items, acquired in-game, from events and dungeon bosses). 

            In other words, there is no need to “limit the cash shop for hardcore players”, because it’s naturally limited by the quality of the items.

            Is that so complicated?

            It’s kind of sad to see someone who thinks his enjoyment of the game is determined by what _other_ people might have. GW2 is about exploring, killing dragons, that sort of thing. It’s not about staring at other people’s ePeens or wondering if yours is big enough.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

            >It’s kind of sad to see someone who thinks >his enjoyment of the game is
            >determined by what _other_ people might >have. GW2 is about exploring, killing >dragons, that sort of thing. It’s not about >staring at other people’s ePeens or >wondering if yours is big enough.

            Isn’t it though? Surely that’s a part of it. lf the game is just about exploring, killing dragons… why have other people in the game at all? Why not make it a singleplayer. Or why not just give everyone the same.

            As a race, we always seem to want more. And I can’t help but feel that these wants are a result of  what other people have, to some degree.
            Commodities are worth what they are, in relation to certain factors, and one of those factors is demand.

            If I lived on my own island and had never met another person, or interacted with another human being in any way, I’m sure I would be perfectly content with what I have now.

            However, I’m not content though; because I live in a world with other people. I see other people driving nice cars, so maybe I want a nice car too. I might not want the nice car just so I can show off to other people. I might just like driving it, or the way it looks. 

            Yet, I only found I wanted it as a direct result of exposure to other people.

            P.S. how do you make your > stay at the start of every line?

          • Old Ben

            > lf the game is just about exploring,
            > killing dragons… why have other
            > people in the game at all? Why
            > not make it a singleplayer.

            Why not make basketball 1 vs. 1 instead of 5 vs. 5? Because by making it a team game, you open up a lot more tactical possibilities, and make the game more interesting.

            Also, dragons are very big, and it takes more than one person to kill them.

            > If I lived on my own island and had
            > never met another person, or
            > interacted with another human
            > being in any way, I’m sure I would
            > be perfectly content with what I
            > have now.

            No you wouldn’t. That’s not how humans work. We have this thing called imagination. 

            > However, I’m not content though;
            > because I live in a world with
            > other people.

            Yeah, other people are a bitch. I often think that society would be much better without them.

            > I see other people driving nice cars,
            > so maybe I want a nice car too.

            Well, I want a jetpack. But the fact that you don’t have one doesn’t make me feel any happier. And if you got one, that wouldn’t make me feel any sadder.

            There is a difference between wanting to have a nice car and not wanting other people to have a nice car unless you get to have one too. The great thing about envy is that it’s its own punishment.

            > how do you make your > stay
            > at the start of every line?

            By pressing return at the end of the previous one.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Maziel Mark Neale

            Just throwing this out there:

            I realise there is not going to be any ‘uber’ type gear or weapons that people can buy from the shop that will un-balance the game.

            But what if there is a best weapon able to be made by another player or bought of the AH for gold?

            Could one then use this system to first of, buy the ‘Gem’ currency with ‘Real cash money’, then convert the ‘Gem’ currency to ‘Gold’, and lastly use that Gold to purchase their best uber gear made by another or posted on the Auction House?Before I go any further, I must say that I have no problems at all with this system. Anything to keep the value of gold etc in check so that gold farmers can’t mess with it, is a good idea.

            The example above is just something I think some people will still be able to do with the system, and frankly I don’t really care.If I have spent a lot of time getting the needed parts to craft an uber weapon that someone else wants to buy from me, I don’t care if they used real cash to buy gems and converted the gems to gold or not… so long as I get the gold I wanted for crafting the weapon.

            Am I missing something about this system they are speaking about?

            Please let me know if I am.
            Thanks. :)

          • Old Ben

            It wouldn’t even need to be made by another player, it would just need to be tradable (i.e., a BoE drop). But I’ve never seen a RPG where tradable weapons were better than boss drops, and I doubt they will be in GW2.

          • Johnt35

            But that ‘uber’ weapon is in the auction house for anyone to buy without having to really work for it, so buying gems and trying to sell it for gold to get that item can’t contradict this scenario

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Lazarowitz/100000420795554 Steve Lazarowitz

            There is no best weapon in Guild Wars..or rather, the best weapons can be gotten by different means. You can get the best weapons by crafting, through Karma, through dungeon runs, possibly other ways as well.
            In a game without gear grind gear at top level is normalized. No one has a better weapon and the game becomes about your skill. So one person can craft a top level weapon and use it. Another will get it as a reward from doing dungeons. Another will get that same spec of weapon with karma.The thing that differentiates those weapons in Guild Wars 1 and will in Guild Wars 2 is how rare the skin is and how cool looking it is. Won’t give you an in game advanage, except in coolness (which is personal taste anyway).

        • Old Ben

          > I prefer multiplayer games to treat people as equals.

          Then I guess you only play free games that come with a free top-tier computer and a free broadband connection, huh?

          Guess what, every game (in fact, every human activity) rewards those who invest more time and money into it. If you think some game doesn’t, you’ve probably missed something.

  • jubia

    (Stealing Hunter’s Insight… insight) Don’t forget that the marketplaces (GW2 AH) are all the same across all servers/worlds. So if you want to sell your gems, you’ll have to “fight” everyone who also bought them, including people in other worlds. And, by the “supply and demand” rule, the price will drop ’cause there will be a huge supply of gems available, to the point that it won’t be really interesting to sell it (you can buy it to your own use, though, but it won’t be worth to buy gems and sell for gold).

    As pointed, XP boosts are not that huge, ’cause it won’t give you any skills (traits, yes, but not skills, you still need to go after those). You can’t buy cool looking gear ’cause those require special tokens (ghastly weapons require ascalon cataboms tokens, for example); normal gear/weapons vendors will require karma.

    And, on the very top, we don’t even know what will be available in the game store. What if all you can buy is bigger storage, reskin and server transfer?

  • http://twitter.com/Vazzaroth Josh Hagood

     I feel like the best part of this news was skimmed over: We can earn microtransaction  currency in game! :D

    Have no problem with exp boosts as long as the game doesn’t feel impossibly hard/long without them. World of Tanks is a good example. After you waste your 2X exp dailys, the game takes FOR-EVE-ER. Even when you buy premium time it takes awhile, but it just feels like a slog through molasses without premium. As long as Anet hasn’t balanced the XP income around it, everything in this sounds good.

    • ScottHawkes

       Hehe sorry we didn;t go into enough detail on that Josh, but I agree that being able to earn gems in-game makes perfect sense. Being an EVE player I’ve always thought PLEX was a great idea so this being adopted in GW2 seems very smart to me.

  • Bizak Dragun

    Gear in GWgames is capped and easily available – meaning that cheapest “max” item have Exactly the same statistics as most expensive items in the game. Price difference of thousands of times is only there because of the looks of a weapon/armor NOT because it makes you stronger…

    Getting more money doesn’t make you better and doesn’t make your game easier in GW2.

    Trading a Service for Money or Money for Service is not new, people have been helping other people for money in GW1 for 7 years now, no one seemed to be bothered by that -.-

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-J-Pate-Terry/1008819820 Joshua J. Pate-Terry

    I’m a bit torn.  I don’t mind spending some money in the cash shop, but I tend to dislike the cash shop having too much power.  Really, only time will tell.

    One thing someone on GW2Guru mentioned, however, is that this leaves the possibility for people who can’t spend real money to get cash shop items by playing the game.  They farm up the gold and by the gems then use them in the cash shop to get the costume or character slot and they didn’t have to fork over a dime, just their time.

    Edit: ninja’d

    • ScottHawkes

       Thanks for your thoughts Josh. That’s the big decider in my mind, the fact you can have access with gold to anything you can get with gems makes this a non-issue for me.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Accessible is a very loose term.

        If it takes 6 months to earn an item that would cost you $10 to buy, would you call that accessible? How about 6 years of grinding?

        The company controls how accessible these items will be, and since they are better off if people buy them, they have mixed motives at best.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

          Do you really think they are going to make it that extreme? I highly doubt it myself. I have a feeling they are going to balance it very well. Sure, they wan’t to make money, but I’m pretty sure they also don’t want to come off as jerks like some other developers out there. 

          • MMO_Doubter

             I think they will be under pressure from their investors to make as much money as possible.

            Blizzard hasn’t exactly enhanced their PR image the last couple of years with their RMTs in WoW, and they are putting a real money AH in Diablo 3.

            The people making the high level decisions care more about profit than image.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            And again, as I’ve always said, these things are optional. You are not being forced to use them, especially the D3 RMAH. If you feel that you are compelled to use them then that is your issue. Speaking for myself, I will never use the D3 RMAH, for any reason, nor will I ever feel like I would need to. It’s a choice, use it or ignore it. Seems pretty simple to me.

          • MMO_Doubter

             My point about D3 was that Blizzard made a design choice that has hurt their image.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Has it really though? Sure, some people have expressed dislike over the issue but I would say they are a small minority. Just because they are the loudest, doesn’t mean they speak for everyone. :)

          • MMO_Doubter

             No choice is disliked by everyone.

            IMO, the AH has been more of a PR negative than positive.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            What do you mean by “no choice”? Players can choose whether or not to use either the real money auction house or the game money auction house. You don’t have to use either of them, ever, if you so choose. Again, a very small minority has been vocal about it (and graphics, talent trees, etc.) but that doesn’t mean much when it comes down to it. I’ll guarantee you that 99.98% of the people bitching about it will still buy and play the game.

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             Don’t confuse ArenaNet with Blizzard though. GW1 came out around a year after WoW and had no subscription fee. These guys aren’t trying to copy Blizzard like some other companies who start with a “B”.

            If I never played GW1, I wouldn’t have as much faith as I do in ArenaNet. I’d be really surprised if they lowered their morals as much as your alluding to.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Don’t confuse ArenaNet with a friend. They are in business to make money, not friends.

            People didn’t think Blizzard would go RMT-crazy. People didn’t think Turbine would go RMT-crazy.

        • Old Ben

          > If it takes 6 months to earn an item that would
          > cost you $10 to buy, would you call that
          > accessible? How about 6 years of grinding?

          If you find actually playing the game unpleasant (“grinding”), then why play it at all? Just so you can get some pixels with a number at the end? 

          You’re acting as if a game is a job, and as if someone is forcing you to play it. If you don’t enjoy the game, save your $10, save your 6 months (or 6 years) and go do something else with your time and money.

          I have never and would never pay to level faster. It’s like paying to skip half the chapters in a book or movie. If something is enjoyable, why make it shorter? And, if it’s not enjoyable, why do it at all? Foreplay is the best part; not only do you have more fun in the long run, but you also build up a better reputation. ;-) 

          Also, the “cash shop” items are merely cosmetic, and the gold value of gems will be determined by the market. If some item could be bought for $10, you can be pretty sure that it wouldn’t require “six months of grinding” to buy the necessary gems (unless you think players would value their time at 0.5 cents per day).

          • dawolv

             As always Ben, air-tight argument.

            As for our lil’ doubter, I have read tons of your “arguments” on this comment section and others. My problem isn’t with you disagreeing, it’s good that someone does – it keeps the discussion going. My problem is that “we” (the other 80%) are posting an entire webpage and you reply to the last 2 of our sentences with a snooty line.
            If you want to devalue our points you might actually have to bring up some points yourself (and saying “no” or just assuming stuff for no good reason doesn’t count).

            I know “we” often say “Arenanet will do it right”, because some of us have no bad experiences with ANet up till now.
            I would never trust anyone blindly, but in this case I’m not.

            When you argue that PvP won’t be “fair”, I say, it was fair in GW1: there were extra skills (balanced for PvP) and you could create a max-level character right away to play. There were buff potions (from holiday events, such as the candy canes a.o.) but they weren’t allowed in PvP (in PvP areas they couldn’t be consumed)

            AND BECAUSE I KNOW THAT FROM GW1,  I have complete faith in ANet in doing the right thing until they prove me wrong.
            and should they proove me wrong, I can quit the game right there, just like you would do if a single player game didn’t live up to your expectatiosn.
             and the best part is, should they fix the problems that drove me away, I can just download the game again and pick up right were I left off.

            Sidenote: Also, they would be INCREDIBLE stupid if they would sell people power. They have been saying they wont for the longest time. Changing their mind now would just loose them 90% of their costumers.

            As we’ve said before, buying power in this game isn’t comparable to other MMO’s since you don’t have a grind to go through.
            “Convenience” items won’t make you more powerful.
            What they are saying with “not being able to buy power” is that the max. stats. items are all acquireble through ingame means.
            Gold isn’t the major currency when it comes to buying gear. Even if someone buys tons of gems and sells them for gold, he can’t and wont have an advantage over people. On the flipside, the guys who sold him the gold can enjoy themselves some nice vanity items from the shop without ever paying money.
            –> The money goes to Anet, the gold isn’t created ingame and get’s spend in the sinks.

          • Old Ben

            I doubt he’s ever played GW or paid much attention to the videos, interviews or articles written about it (he keeps making basic mistakes and assuming GW is identical to WoW – not even the “old school” WoW, the current WoW). I smell a wrathbaby (and the race should be obvious). And I bet he doesn’t PvP at all.

  • Kyuubisama

    I agree with Scott. I do not see the problem with them getting to cap level with boosts but i do have a problem when someone will buying epic equipment. I am extremely excited on what it has to offer since we have such a huge flood of games supposedly enter our world this year. And to add MMO doubters post and pardon me… No Crap dipstick they want more money but if it has a logical base and does not affect play consistency I am all for it. It is all about making money for any game as of late. Use your coco dear and get a rid of the cranial anal inversion and give it a chance.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KI7Q7KTG4XGQQ2NOM7N4IMFAIM Rae

    Thanx for the report on this Info, this is a big issue to me and alot of folx.

    I wonder what the gold-farming industry’s response to will be……

    -What is to prevent them from selling the same thing at a cheaper price?

    nothing ruined WOW for me more than the gold farming industry’s almost complete control of the market.
    AAlthough I am somewhat leary of cash shops, I sure hope this kills off the GF industry.

    It would be great to see Gamebreaker discuss the Gold Farming situation in a show.

    Love ths little segments You guys are doing on things like this!

    • MMO_Doubter

       Not that they would have anyone on to speak against it.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

         Very true.

    • ScottHawkes

       Thank you very much Rae.

    • 7BitBrian

      The players are to stop them. Gems are a set rl money price, that can never be changed. So the rl value of those will always be the same. The in game gold value is going to be determined by how much we are willing to pay for gems. So the conversion rate isn’t set in stone, it’s fluctuating and controlled by the player market.

      It’s also worth noting that when you are buying gems you are buying an item that ArenaNet has already been payed for. Those gems aren’t just there, they are created when someone spends money on them. So when you spend gold on that you are just getting the gems that someone else payed real money for.

      So how exactly would gold farmers make any money off this? If they buy gems to sell for gold they are spending money. If they farm gold to buy gems then they are buying a currency that cannot be turned back into real money, so they can only get the cash shop items or the gold they spent on it back out.

      The only viable option they have is farming gold and trying to sell it for cheaper than the gem/gold conversion. But since that conversion rate is set by the players and what they are willing to pay then they would have to undercut so much they would essentially be loosing money instead of making any money. It costs money to farm gold, spam trade, and execute the billing and exchange of goods. So to even earn a profit gold farmers have to sell gold at a higher rate than is costs to do all that, which limits their undercutting abilities.

      For example look at Eve Online. they have an item called PLEX, you buy it for real life money. It is an in game item that can be traded. The price of PLEX is ever changing as it always depends on supply and demand, it is controlled by the player market. If I buy a PLEX with in game money and use it to get another month of sub time I am not getting that month for free, what I am doing is getting that month on the dime of the person who bought the PLEX with rl money. I am just providing said person with in game money as an exchange.

      In EvE “gold sellers” are beyond rare and the few who do exists barely scrape by and rely on players not knowing about or understanding the PLEX program. But with this being built into the cash shop and advertised that won’t be as much of a problem in GW2.

      You will never be able to fully get rid of “gold sellers” in any MMO, but this does make it harder for them to turn any sort of profit and puts the power into the hands of the players to determine what things should or should not be worth, instead of the gold sellers.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

        I don’t play EVE, so I’d like to ask a few things…

        So; the gems can’t be bought directly from Anet with in-game gold? In other words; it’s entirely at the discretion of players who’ve paid real money for gems; to determine how much gold they’re worth (or at least; how much they’re willing to sell them for), or if they’d like to trade them for gold at all?

        In which case: in a scenario whereby there is a large shortage of people that want to sell gems, or that said people ask for an unrealistically high quantity of gold in exchange (assuming they can because the demand is much higher than the supply). Would that mean that players are essentially ‘forced’ to pay real money for gems, if they want to access the best goodies the game has to offer?

        Or are there measures in place to prevent this? Are we to assume that there are still going to be commodities that can only be purchased with in-game gold, which would make it worthwhile for the gem-purchasers to consider trading them? Or are all the ‘uber’ goodies only purchasable via gem?

        Thanks in advance if you can help clarify this.

        • Old Ben

          > So; the gems can’t be bought directly from Anet with in-game gold?

          Assuming they behave like PLEX, that is correct (but the game isn’t out yet, so no one can say for sure).

          > In which case: in a scenario [...] Would that mean that
          > players are essentially ‘forced’ to pay real money for
          > gems, if they want to access the best goodies the
          > game has to offer?

          No, because the cash shop won’t sell “the best goodies” to begin with. It will only sell “cosmetic” items (think pets and mounts) or time savers (think a golem banker, that lets you access your bank remotely X number of times). 

          The “uber goodies” (meaning top-level gear) won’t be purchasable with gems _or_ with gold, they have to be obtained by playing the game (from quests / events or boss drops).

          It is possible to obtain the best _tradable_ items with gems (indirectly, by selling the gems for gold and then using that gold to pay someone for the item), but that already happens in most MMOs (people make deals outside the game, paying real money in exchange for some rare in-game item or loot card, etc.). 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

            Thanks for the reply; this puts my mind at ease, a little.

          • dawolv

             Just to clarify, this is a quote from the blog post:
            “MMO veterans will note the similarities of our system to EVE Online’s
            PLEX system. As in that case, our system takes gold trading out of the
            hands of real-money trading (RMT) companies and puts it directly in the
            hands of players.”

            Have you actually read it?
            Most posts here discuss things that o’Brian adressed in the post!

          • JJGlyph

            www (dot) guildwars2hot (dot) com/en/16-guild-wars-2-gems

            You were saying?

  • MMO_Doubter

    It is BETTER for the players to have any gold selling done by third-party companies.

    Third-party sellers have no control over how the game is designed. They cannot alter xp rates, gold costs or any other aspect of the game’s design to suit their business interests.

    • JJGlyph

      Agreed. This system also means that the in-game economy is controlled by the cash shop. Gold sinks don’t scale, so the more gems bought in the cash shop, the more the game is broken for the rest of us.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Debatable point. The gold being traded for the gems is player-earned. It is a way that will encourage some to farm gold (including botting), but it won’t add gold to the system – unlike selling gold directly. UNLESS there are vendors who buy gems for gold, or sell salable items for gems.

        MMO companies have gotten VERY sly in recent years in this area.

        • JJGlyph

          We’ll have to wait and see I guess. Maybe they’ll surprise me.

          On a side note… People may reconsider buying the Collector’s Edition now. They can buy the Digital Deluxe, get all the in-game items still… and then put the leftover $70 toward getting rich in-game once people have gold saved up.

          *sigh*

          Life would be so much simpler without money. (naive statement of the day award?)

          • MMO_Doubter

             Yeah. I play games to get away from real life, but this whole RMT angle is screwing that up big time.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Then don’t play the games that offer that feature.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I don’t.

            Neither do I consider it a ‘feature’.

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             You don’t consider it a feature…

            I consider you a troll…

            We all have opinions. :)

          • MMO_Doubter

             The only honest and fair system is a sub fee with no RMTs.

          • dawolv

             How is a sub fee fair?
            Theres a reason why in most areas of life you don’t pay people up front unless you have at least seen a glimpse of the stuff you will get in return.

            Subs entitle you to free content updates, but what if the content is shit or doesn’t interest you?
            That’s right, you just wasted some money

          • Old Ben

            Not to mention that if you have 20 minutes a day to play and I have 4 hours, I’m getting a lot more “value for money” than you.

            I think our resident troll studied logic in Bizarro World.

          • Old Ben

            > Life would be so much simpler without money.
            > (naive statement of the day award?)

            Not so much naïf as just demonstrably wrong. If you decide to trade without money, you’ll soon find yourself having to deal with the fact that two half chickens are actually “worth” a lot less than a complete chicken. 

            Money exists to make trading (and life) simpler. Capital, on the other hand…

        • Old Ben

          > that will encourage some to
          > farm gold (including botting)

          What for? They can’t sell in-game gold for real money. That would happen if the gold was being sold through 3rd party websites, but as long as no items in the game can be sold for cash (only _bought_), there is no incentive for people to farm more gold than what they need for themselves.

          • MMO_Doubter

             You can sell in-game gold for gems, which are the cash shop currency.

          • Old Ben

            And…?

            You can’t sell the gems for money, so there’s no way to get real money _out_ of the game, and therefore no financial incentive to farm for gold beyond what you can use for your own characters.

            That means _less_ bots / farmers, not more.

    • Old Ben

      The game developer always has control over all aspects of the game, and always cares about its “business interests”. Buying gold from farmers doesn’t change that, it just means you’re feeding a parasitic industry that fills the game with spam, bots, phishing attempts, and so on.

  • http://twitter.com/Dagus_94 David Gustafsson

    I dont think its that bad.. since gold isn’t that important in comparison  to other mmos. like in wow you can buy some of the best gear available on the ah but in guild wars 2 the stuff on the ah is = in stats compared to other gear. And the xp boost.. since lvls ain’t that important anymore because you dont have a traditional “end game” so there is not a big reason to level up faster. and its great that you can convert your gold to gems and gems to gold. that way there is no “real money only” items.

    • ScottHawkes

       Those are my thoughts exactly David, I’m not in a race to get anywhere in any MMO, and less than most in a system like GW2, so if someone else can get some boost along their way then power to them.

  • Avan Gore

    I hope they don’t pull a LotRO on their shop. Their blog post was nice but what they will actually be selling will speak the truth.

    • ScottHawkes

      It’s true Avan that we will have to wait and see just how poerful the items in the shop will be, but if ArenaNet sticks to the philosophy outlined so far it would be very unlikely. Thanks for the comment.

    • JJGlyph

      If it’s like LotRO, I won’t be playing the game.

  • Bradley Phillips

    Title is a bit misleading and I can’t watch the video for a bit.

    You can’t buy gold. You buy gems, which are tradeabel for gold. The distinction is important.

    Noone can spawn gold into the game with cash. Cash makes cash shop currency, which so long as items in the case shop aren’t worth gold, it’s a gold neutral purchase. This really impacts the inflation and economy of the game. Cash 1:1 for gold floods a market with gold and punishes new players by devaluing their currency.

    This system is far smarter.

    I’m assuming you make the distinction in the video, scott is typically prettly level headed.

    • ScottHawkes

       Hi Bradley thanks for your thoughts. Yes we do make it specific that you can buy gems with gold or cash, I do think the system is a strong one as it has been presented so far.

    • JJGlyph

      People will farm like crazy because they don’t want to pay for the cash shop items with RL cash. So, it will create gold surpluses in the economy. There is no mechanism in place to stop this from ruining the economy. Gold sinks currently do not scale. And if they did, that would be unfair to the players not partaking in the gem system.

      Competive PvP is starting to look better and better to me. It’s the only aspect of the game unaffected by money.

      • ScottHawkes

         I do think people will be farming for gold to buy gems, but if they are farming them to buy the microtransaction items then won’t that be the money sink to take care of the surplus gold? Forgive me if I’m a bit foggy, long day and my stomach is growling.

        • JJGlyph

          No, because the gold remains in-game. It goes to the person trading the gems.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

             who will then go on to either buy level appropriate gear (which isn’t the same as omguberl33thax gear, and it likely won’t be as good as gear bought for karma or as drops from giant enemy boss crabs) or crafting mats and/or other items. distributing the wealth throughout the community (in the case of mats and other items) and being a gold sink (in the case of level appropriate gear)

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             It depends… Can people sell gems in the AH? If only ANet sells gems for gold/cash then that is a gold sink, and quite brilliant.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Players can sell gems for gold to other players.

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             Thanks for pointing that out Roger, I would personally prefer that gems were only purchasable through ANet vendors. That would make for a huge gold sink… Hopefully they consider this. Even if they allow the option to trade, by making the gems a set price at a vendor will regulate the trade value.

          • Old Ben

            > regulate the trade value

            (insert “in Soviet Russia” joke)

          • Old Ben

            And would completely defeat the point of having two separate currencies (i.e., they might as well just price the items in gold). The whole point of selling the gems for cash and then letting players sell them for gold is to let players determine who much a gem should be “worth”.

            The game isn’t even out yet, why would they need a “gold sink”…?

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             Future planning… Prevention is better than repair. I was just pointing out that if the price of gems gets out of control, ANet could easily fix it.

            Who knows, maybe crafting, traveling, and repairing will be enough of a gold sink to keep the economy stable. If you look at some other MMOs, you realize how ridiculous the market can get if inflation isn’t kept in check.

          • Old Ben

            How can it get “out of control” ? If it gets too high, people will just buy the pets from the shop directly (with cash), and the gem sellers will bring the price down (or they won’t be able to get any gold). 

            And if it gets too low, gem sellers will stop wasting their money until it goes back up.

            I’m sure the price will fluctuate a bit (ex., gems will become more valuable when some cool new item is released in the cash shop), but supply and demand will regulate it.

            It’s not the “government’s” job to dictate the price of luxury goods. 

        • http://twitter.com/JadoCast Jado Cast

          Scott, if you have time in the Beta this weekend, can you see if a Gem can be place in the AH and get back to us?  Out of all the Micro Transaction arguments, this is probably the most important in regards to keeping a stable economy.

      • dawolv

         The community is the mechanic.
        In order to transform your gold into gems you will need people who bought gems for RL-Money and are willing to trade it for gold.

        Depending on how many people end up doing it, the prices could be very steep to prevent people from mass farming.

        Also, stop using the word “unfair”.
        We know too little about the ingame currency (how much costs what in relation to something else) to make real predictions

      • Old Ben

        > People will farm like crazy because they don’t want
        > to pay for the cash shop items with RL cash. So,
        > it will create gold surpluses in the economy. There
        > is no mechanism in place to stop this from ruining
        > the economy. 

        If there is “a gold surplus in the economy”, then gem sellers (people who buy gems with real money to sell for game gold), will stop having a reason to inject more gems into the game (because they already have more gold than they can use).

        That in turn means gold won’t be usable to buy cash shop items (because there are no gems for sale), which means people will stop farming gold for the purposes of buying cash shop items (and will either wait or buy the item with cash). Once the gem sellers run out of gold, they will again buy gems and sell them in-game, and people will again have a reason to make gold to buy those gems (and then trade them for cash shop items).

        Naturally, all the above will be happening at the same time, with different sellers and different buyers.

        In other words, the system will find an equilibrium. It might require adjusting the cost of some in-game items after launch, but that would probably happen anyway.

        The impact of PLEX in the Eve economy wasn’t that big (certainly not as big as the impact of some in-game items added and removed by some patches).

  • http://twitter.com/sponro Robert Šponar

    I got a question, the currency you use in auction house or whatever its called in here (i forgot, trading house?) is gold right? so if you can buy gems with money and you can trade gems for gold you will be in advantige as you will be able to buy things via auction house for gold ( ->gems->money.) So basically you will be able to buy items from auction house for real money.

    That does look like advantage to me. Am i wrong?

    Ofc it depends on the trading ratio as in how many gems you get for how much money. If there will be lets say … great weapon for 150gold and 1gold will be 1 gem and 1 gem will be 1$ than i dont realy care. If your a moron and you wanna buy it for the 3x cost of the whole game then sure. Ofc we can only speculate on that. It can be the other way around, you get lots of gold for few $. that would suck.

    • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

      You can still go fight for the same gold to buy items off the auction house. So I suppose it comes down to whether or not you consider *time* an advantage. I personally would rather have fun playing the game and be rewarded with gold/items. If someone wants to go the cash route, then that’s their choice.

      As long as what they buy with cash isn’t any better than what I earn with effort, I’m fine.

    • Old Ben

      > So basically you will be able to buy items from
      > auction house for real money.
      > That does look like advantage to me. Am i wrong?

      Well, it’s an advantage in terms of time and a disadvantage in terms of money.

      If you have free time, and if you like the game, then I guess paying the money would be a double disadvantage.

      Instead of spending real money to buy a gem (and then sell it for gold, to buy an item at the market), you can play for a bit longer, make the equivalent amount of gold (having fun in the process, since you’re playing a game), and then buy the same item at the market.

      The actual value of gems (in terms of gold) will be determined by supply and demand.

  • Daniel Undin

    I’d say it depends a whole lot on how it affects us ingame, but over-all it’s better then having third party goldsellers

    • JJGlyph

      Is it though? Third party sellers affect a small percentage of the population since no one wants their account banned.

      This is wide-spread legal gold selling.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Another point that some might not like:

         if someone bought gold in a game where that is not allowed, and got their account hacked – good. That would be quite fitting in my books.

        • Old Ben

          Why would any gold seller hack the account of someone who is buying gold from him? To lose a client and reduce his own future profits? 

          Do you even run this stuff through your brain before hitting that “post” button…?

      • Old Ben

        No one gets their account banned. I know several people in WoW who have been buying gold for years. They were reported to GMs (who have access to their transactions and chat logs), but there were never any consequences. They frequently talk about it on public chat, too.

        Blizzard couldn’t care less if people buy gold or farm it themselves, as long as they keep paying their subscription. In fact, if buying gold makes some people less likely to cancel, Blizzard is all for it.

    • MMO_Doubter

       It is worse, as I pointed out in an earlier post.

  • Corey Jenkins

    I honestly don’t see an issue with this as long as it does not give players an unfair advantage and from reading the actual blog post it does sound like they are completely against the “pay to win” model. If it did end up giving players an advantage in game I would be somewhat surprised if arena net didn’t do something to fix the issue, considering that most of their current content for gw2 is pretty solid. The other thing people have to look at is the actual economy that surrounds an MMO. I mean the more people try and sell these things on the AH the less they are going to go for..simple supply and demand really, so if  a lot of people do this then they will most likely only make a few silver, or maybe a few gold at most. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=77202596 Ryan Augustine

      I agree. This will lead to gems selling for less if everyone is selling them for gold as well as for more if people want items only gems can buy. This is a way to try to address the GF’s and bring it into the game since people seems to want this service in games.

      Also this is another way to try to put more of the game into the community’s hands. We will be helping set the value of these items.

      • dawolv

         Exactly, and if a lot of people buy gems and try to sell them and demand presses the price margin down, they’d end up “loosing” cash out of their own stupidity and wrong estimates on the ingame market.

        So it’s a little like wall street :D
        If “everyone”‘s doing it, you will pretty soon see people stop buying gems to sell, because it’s not worth it. Would you spend 30 Real-Life-bucks to get 200 gold?

        I feel like the people with a lot of cash to throw around can do that if they want. In PvP we’re all the same and if they are “better” than me in PvE coz they threw some Franklin’s at their screens – WHO CARES?
        They are fighting with you – you kinda profit from that too!

        If you can “buy” titles (which I doubt they will do) you won’t feel any satisfaction from getting it, what’s what getting these is all about in the first place.

        • MMO_Doubter

           Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the equalization does not apply in WvWvW. If that is true, a lot of people will pay for ANY advantage.

          • Old Ben

            You are wrong. 

            To be honest, I didn’t even bother to check, but I’m confident that statistics are on my side when you say that you are wrong. 

          • dawolv

             You are kind of right.
            You are bumped up to 80, but your gear isn’t in WvWvW.

            On the other hand you will encounter many different people in WvW. If you are lvl 10 and someone with lvl 80 comes along, he will most likely wipe the floor with you.
            It doesn’t matter if he played up to 80 and got the gear “legit” or if he paid for it.
            That is exactly what ANet tried to achieve with this system.
            It’s converting money into lost play time.

            If you have both, money and spare time to play, you won’t be more powerful
            A level 80 with max stats can’t be trumped by microtransactions. So it’s not really buying power. The power is there for you to obtain anyway. If you choose to buy instead of play, than that’s your choice.

            I don’t really see a problem with this.

          • http://twitter.com/Symph11 Kristian Stær

            As far as I remember, the only differences between PvP and WvW is that you don’t get the free armor/weapon bonuses on your gear, you don’t all the skills for free, and you don’t get all trait points.
            You do, however, both in PvP and WvW get scaled to 80 and your gear’s base stats gets scaled to 80 as well.

            Which ultimately means that a lvl 80 will have more skills to choose from (including elites), have a full trait spec, and have the bonuses on his/her armor, which a lower lvl player (depending on lvl) will only have to a lesser degree.

          • JJGlyph

            That’s correct Kristian.

            Structured PvP = completely equal.
            WvW = only base stats get boosted.

  • Bluecewe

    It’s certainly an emulation of CCP’s PLEX system in Eve Online.

    However, Eve Online has a huge player-driven economy which can be likened to real-world economies in a surprising range of aspects. In Guild Wars 2 though, I doubt there will be as large an emphasis on a player-driven economy and thus the effect of implementing a PLEX-like system may differ from the results seen in Eve.

    • ScottHawkes

       True enough Blue, though I’m hoping GW2 will have a robust economy, and it seems ArenaNet see this PLEX style of system as a way to bolster it. But as you said, we will have to wait and see how it turns out.

    • Old Ben

      Eve’s economy isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Yes, it has a pretty well-designed “marketplace”, but a lot of the items are created by NPCs and due to some imbalanced blueprints that are inaccessible to new players, a handful of older players / corps control certain areas of the market (because they can produce the good cheaper than anyone else, since the blueprints they are using no longer exist in the game). 

      So yes, it’s a “big” economy, because everyone is on the same server, but it’s not a very realistic one.

      • Bluecewe

        You are correct in some regards, but in the real world certain corporations tend to hog certain resources as well; look at the patent wars between various technology megacorporations in recent years for instance.

        The important thing is that a fair amount of items are manufactured by players, rather than being sold by NPCs or “dropping” from NPCs (ignoring the occasional good piece of loot dropping from an NPC in a mission or some other PvE envrionment). Almost everything is bought through the marketplace and a large amount of those items are built by players; this is something which a game like Guild Wars 2 will be unlikely to match as better loot will probably be acquired through PvE encounters and PvE-centric currency.

  • Dimitris Chatz

    Lets suppose someone spends real money to get an xp buff and lvl up faster than me,thus having access to higher lvl skills and items. When i meet him in pvp , wont he have a real money bought advantage?

    • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

       I doubt an XP bonus will be one of the cash items, Maybe things like portable bankers or work stations or something, I doubt they would add a balance breaker like an XP boost, and even if they did i doubt it would be a huge XP boost, maybe a few %

      • dawolv

         Like I said in another post, an XP-Boost isn’t really an advantage in the game.
        sure, you’ll be a little more powerful in WvW, but in a PvE environment your not playing the game to get to level 80 – you’re playing the game to experience the content. If you level faster, you still, if you’re a completionist, stick around lower zones to finish them. You will effectively outlevel the zones faster – which isn’t that much of an advantage, since the game automatically scales you back down.

        and for PvP it doesn’t matter, since everyone is buffed up to 80 with everything unlocked anyway.

        There are already boosts like that in the guild system.
        You can pay influence (play time) to gain these kinds of boosts. So, as they said, you can either spend the time or your “disposable income”.
        So I think boosts like XP, Karma and Influence boosts are a possibility.
        I’m not super happy about it, but I could care less if people use them

        • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

           I’m actually happy that this system is in place. I would never by an aesthetic and rarely buy account services, but i would be playing the game all the damn time. With this system in place it means i can get what i want from the cash shop and i don’t have to pay money to do it.

          If i have an ass-load of gold lying around but not real life income (i’m a student so this will likely be the case) I will be able to get the account services and aesthetics and Golem bankers anyway, and since gold seems so easy to come by (from what i have seen) I doubt people would buy gems to sell for gold unless they didn’t have the time to invest.

          But it is too early to try to weigh all the up, we have had no preview of what we will buy, and we don’t know what sort of prices the gems will go for in game. Honestly, I think 90% of the player population won’t even notice, the only people it will affect is the people who want items from the shop and people who want gold and have money to throw away for such things

    • ScottHawkes

       I guess he would Dimitris, to a small extent. But then again, anyone who had just spent more time in the game playing would have the same advantage. The question on whether this is unbalancing is down to does it allow you an advantage that spending time in-game does not. Which I don’t see as the case.
      Thanks for your comment.

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/cpjontek?feature=mhee Sk33tsk33t

      Yes as well as the end game gear.  I would be fine with this if they gave everyone in WvW max skills/gear/level like they do in the 5v5.  

    • Old Ben

      Let’s suppose you start playing as soon as the game is released, whereas I can’t afford to buy the game, and I only manage to buy it 3 months later. When we meet in PvP, won’t you have an advantage? At first, yes, you probably will (in other words, your real-world money gave you an advantage), but as I spend more time playing, I will become more experienced and get better gear, so after a while we’ll both be at the same level.

      The same goes for people who pay a subscription vs. people who play the free edition of WoW, for example (or people with Cataclysm vs. people with Wrath, and so on). The only way to eliminate that completely is to make the game absolutely free and to eliminate any sort of “levelling” (i.e., to turn the game into something like Counter-Strike, where everyone has access to exactly the same abilities as soon as they get into the game).

      In GW2, when players join a WvW battle, their levels get normalized, so the difference won’t be as noticeable as in other games. And the same will probably happen in rated PvP.

      The more sensitive issue is whether or not GW2 players will be able to buy PvP “consumables” using gold (which in turn can be bought with gems, which can be bought with real money). That would indeed give some players (and their realms) an advantage in PvP and WvW, not just a headstart at lower levels.

    • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

      Are you meeting him in Structured PvP? Because if so, no, he won’t have any advantage whatsoever; you’ll both be level 80 with level 80 gear and stats.

      If you are meeting him in WvWvW, note that there aren’t higher level skills – he may have access to a wider skill POOL than you do for his utility skills, but this would still depend on how well he chose/used his skills – simply having more buttons to push doesn’t really grant an advantage.

      Now as for gear itself, yes, he would have a slight gear advantage over you, but NOT a stat advantage on his base stats, since you would both be bolstered to level 80.

  • JJGlyph

    GW2Guru thread is already over 1,300 posts. lol….

    • ScottHawkes

       Hehehe it’s a contentious issue alright JJ.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Deemo91 Matthew O’Neill

    The  comment that says “time saving convenience items” could just mean things like the “golem banker” or something to that effect, not necessarily an experience boost. there are more ways to save time than just an experience boosts

    • ScottHawkes

       Very true Matthew and I have no doubt that will be the case. We used the example of experience buffs as it would be the kind of item that would be contentious for some in relation that it has an effect on play time. Thanks for the comment.

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         I agree with Matthew, the only thing we’ve seen is a Glory boost in the Collector’s/Deluxe Edition, which isn’t experience… It’s only currency for PVP gear. I think an experience boost will turn a lot more people off than just being able to buy Glory.

    • whoopster

      Yeah, if it is ‘balanced’. In your example: Golem is ok if it gives a minor convenience. However, imagine a players bags gets filled every 5 minutes and he/she had to gor ½ way across the world to access bank space, then it would be broken.(edit: if he couldn’t afford to golem banker)

      Not saying (or even beleiving) that it will be like this, but A-net will have to tune this very finelly to hit the sweetspot between overpowering and gimping.

  • Kristinn Heidar

    As long as the devs are clear on this before the game goes live…  What are they gonna be selling and what not.  If they sell gold then ok… they said they would.  And thats that.  Buy it or dont buy it.

  • whoopster

    If A-net successfully deal with:
    Preventing Gems from circumventing the Karma currency and or using gold/Gems from accessing Rare/Unique prestige items/perks/titles (as it would devalue them) (make the items/perks/titles BoP in WoW terms)
    AND
    Keep the community from splitting up into $Buyers vs Time-Grinders
    AND
    Keep the relative value of Dollar time invested within some median accepted value
    THEN
    This is will be an nice system for the majority of the players – it’s all about balancing it out.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

      Yes; I feel that the real-world currency pricing of the gems, relative to the time-investment in order to earn them, via the medium of gold; is the lowest common denominator here.

      I’m somewhat disconcerted by the fact that we can’t trade in-game gold to ArenaNet directly in order to earn the gems. It’s up to the gem-purchaser to decide if they want to trade them for gold, and if so, for how much. If few people actually buy these gems; then there will be a huge demand surplus, in which case said players will be able to charge whatever they like for these gems.
      Although I suppose if that was the case, more people would then decide to buy the gems directly, which would then in turn lower the demand surplus.
      In which case, it all comes down once again, to the real-world value of these gems.

      Then again, even if a large number of people do purchase these gems, there is still no guarantee that these people will be willing to trade the gems for gold at all.

      This MMOconomics does my head in sometimes.

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         Actually I just wrote in a post on GW2guru that a simple fix would be for ANet to just have Gem vendor. It would let ANet have some control over the Gem market, that way keeping things in check. They haven’t specifically said there will be one, but haven’t said there won’t be either… I’ll try to pass the message along to them.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

          Actually, the more I think about it, the system they’ve come up with is perfect…

          …For Anet.

          There won’t be a gem vendor.

          Old Ben points it out.

          [Old Ben
          And
          would completely defeat the point of having two separate currencies
          (i.e., they might as well just price the items in gold). The whole point
          of selling the gems for cash and then letting players sell them for
          gold is to let players determine how much a gem should be "worth".]

          If you don’t see it; I’ll try to clarify.

          If there was a gem vendor, with a set price of gems, we’d all essentially just be buying the cashshop items with gold. Which means that gold farmers could simply farm gold, and then sell it for a cheaper price than what Anet’s sells for it’s gems for.

          e.g. A gem costs $1.00 in the cashshop, or 1,000 gold from the gem vendor. As a result, a gold farmer could come along and sell you 1,000 gold for $0.50; undercutting Anet by 50%.

          Anet doesn’t like this, as they’re losing out on $1 money that they could be making.

          So they’ve made it such that you can only buy the gem for $1.00 at the cashshop. So the people that buy gems can sell it for however much gold they like.

          So how does the gold farmer make money now?

          Theoretically, a gold farmer can still farm gold, and trade it for gems, and then sell these gems for real money. But they can only trade gold to players who have already paid for those gems. So Anet isn’t losing out on anything.

          …Anet wins.

          Now, there is another option for the gold farmer. He can farm gold, and then simply sell the gold to you. But he has nothing to base his price off. So he might charge you $0.50 for 1,000 gold, but maybe nobody will sell you a gem. Maybe they will, but for 10,000 gold. In which case, you’re better off buying the gem for $1.00 off of Anet.

          …Anet wins.

          BUT it’s not just gold farmers who suffer… if there is a large gem demand surplus;

          i.e. a lot more people with gold who want gems, than there are people with gems who want gold…

          then realistically, if you want something from the cashshop, you’re either going to have to have to grind to earn a hell of a lot of gold to trade to those who have bought gems, or you simply buy gems from Anet

          Who wins? I think we know by now.

          But it doesn’t matter, because the gem shop only sells cosmetic items. Purely cosmetic.
           Y’know, like a Golem Banker…

          or a Chalice of Glory…

          or a Tome of Influence…

          • Old Ben

            > Theoretically, a gold farmer can still farm gold, and trade
            > it for gems, and then sell these gems for real money.

            Not sure what you mean there. There’s no way to “sell gems for real money” in the game. You buy them for real money, but after that all you can do is spend them on the “cash shop” (well, the gem shop) to buy pets or whatever, or sell them in the game, in exchange for gold.

            You can’t actually take real money _out_ of the game, so gold farmers wouldn’t benefit at all by buying gems.

            They can still farm gold with their characters and then ask players for real money (on their websites) in exchange for a promise of in-game gold or in-game gems, of course, but anyone doing that is taking a risk, and will probably prefer to simply buy some gems directly (and sell them in-game, if they need gold). To give people a better deal than that (and overcome the risk factor), gold farmers will have to operate on very low margins.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

            I thought gold farmers always sold gold for real money, outside of the game? I thought that was the point? A few hundred asian kids employees grinding away to earn gold, and then the gold farming company sells it…

            Anyway, the point is; ArenaNet aren’t trying to take goldfarmers out of the game for the convenience of player; as some are trying to make out. They’ve simply introduced their own system, so that they themselves can make money where previously. If anything players will get a worse deal, because there will be no competiton.

            Forgive me if I’m talking about something different to what everyone is talking about here…

          • Old Ben

            > I thought gold farmers always sold
            > gold for real money, outside of the game?

            And they will still be able to do that. Nothing changes there. I can post on any forum saying “if you send me $50, I’ll send your GW2 character 5000 gold in the game”. But nothing actually forces me to send you the gold after you pay me; I could just be scamming you. So, no change there.

            What changes is that every player now has a way to exchange money for gold inside the game (with no risk). They can simply buy some gems, put them up for sale in the game, and every other player (who wants to buy pets or whatever from the gem shop) will do the “farming” (or, more likely, will simply pay for the gem with gold that he already has).

            So the guy who wanted to buy gold gets his gold in exchange for his money (through the intermediate gem), and the players with spare gold who wanted an item from the “gem shop” can get it without spending any real money. Also, the money goes to the game developer, so it can be used to develop new content (instead of going to some guy who fills the game with spam advertising his “service”).

            The reason why this makes GW2 less attractive to gold farmers (and 3rd party gold sellers) is that they will effectively be competing with every player in the game. Every player can become a “gold seller”, in-game, as long as he’s interested in trading his gold for game items (from the gem shop / cash shop). 

            ANet doesn’t “control the pricing” because the exchange rate between gold and gems will be determined by the players (and will fluctuate). 

            By eliminating the gold sellers’ profit, the average price that players need to pay will also be lower (unless you think the gold sellers were operating at a loss, which obviously makes no sense).

            Gold sellers are still free to operate as they always have (create some characters, farm gold, try to sell it on 3rd party websites). But now they’ll have millions of competitors able to supply gold with zero risk. If anything, that will force them to lower their prices even more.

          • Johnt35

            Also I’m pretty sure Gold will only be used to purchase misc items and materials and armor/weapon repairs and a few minor armors and weapons.  Karma will determine how powerful a character is, and we all know you can only get Karma by doing quests and pvp, so there wouldnt really be any purpose for buying gold in the first place

          • MMO_Doubter

             Do you think ANet would go to the trouble and expense of designing an RMT system in GW2, just to have few people use it?

          • Johnt35

            Never said a few people would only use it.  Everyone will, big boy

          • Old Ben

            Why would it be used “just by a few people” ? 

            Just log into WoW or TF2 to see the number of people who buy stuff from the mount shop / hat shop.

            If anything, since GW2 doesn’t have a subscription, and since you can buy gems in-game (without spending real cash), players are *more* likely to buy items from the shop than in WoW.

          • greygoo

            are you high? how are you gonna undercut when the person holding the gem has already forked cash over to a-net.  at most you could screw the gem holder out of what he wants for his gem in which case he simply would deny trading.

  • http://twitter.com/K0ndra Madao

    One thought in my mind. In WvW one of the servers have more players who spend money for buffs then another server doesn’t. Sounds like pay to win situation.

    • ScottHawkes

       It’s certainly a point to consider Madao, what I would say is that there is just as likely to be a lot of people with a lot of gold from just playing the game a lot than from paying cash. If WvW is balanced enough to make buying victory with gold unlikely, I don’t think the gems system is a problem.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Are you seriously suggesting that having an advantage for playing the game a lot is the same as having an advantage for spending more money?

        • ScottHawkes

          I think it’s clear I’m suggesting there isn’t an imbalance between the two.

          • MMO_Doubter

            People who play the game provide team mates for PvE and oponents for PvP.Thus making the game better.

            People who buy their power/rewards only provide more profit for the company.

            Gamers PLAY. Shoppers PAY.

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             People who pay for items are still playing the game… Why else would they buy the items… I fail to see your logic.

          • MMO_Doubter

            Going by the comparison, they would be playing less.

            Why do they buy the items? ePeen. Bragging rights. Vanity.

          • whoopster

            Or they would be playing more as they need to farm gold less?
            DOing less farming by buying gems for gold could just as well mean they have more time to go instance, W3, etc

          • Old Ben

            Don’t try to use logic; he has compatibility problems with that.

          • Old Ben

            Looks like you spend far too much time looking at (or thinking about) other people’s ePeens…

          • MMO_Doubter

             That was very immature.

          • Old Ben

            No, that was a pretty accurate summary of your complaints.

          • Old Ben

            So if I pay someone else to do my (real life) job, thus leaving me with more free time to play the game, which category does that put me into? 

            It’s hard to tell if you’re trolling or if you really don’t understand how economies work.

  • http://twitter.com/Bempa24 Benni Nord

    Does it matter if people buy xp-boosts when one big thing about gw2 is about experiencing the game not the “end-game”

    • MMO_Doubter

       I think a LOT of people will be playing WvWvW.

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         I’ll personally be playing PVE more than anything else. As I’m sure a LOT of other people will be as well. If you look at current MMO communities, more people spend their time in PVE instead of PVP.

        However, I think GW2 really does offer great things in the PVP area. I really look forward to Conquest matches, since they remind me of BF3… with swords. :)

  • Old Ben

    Letting people buy the “cash shop” items using in-game currency (i.e., letting people buy gems with gold) is fine. 

    The opposite (letting people buy gems with real money, and then sell them in-game for gold) is somewhat less fine, but, objectively, that would end up happening anyway (through 3rd party sites). Doing it openly in-game should at least reduce the number gold farmers and the number of people getting their accounts hijacked.

    Even without this, any game that rewards playing time is “pay to win”, in the sense that if you give up your job (or pay someone else to do it), you’ll have more time to play and therefore will get better items. What CCP did with Eve and what ANet is doing with GW2 is put a cash value on players’ time.

    As long as the game doesn’t become an “ilevel race”, this is probably the lesser of two evils.

    • MMO_Doubter

       If people buy got their account hacked from gold-sellers, why is that a bad thing?

      Your equation of playing time with spending cash is way of the mark.

      That is me being ‘diplomatic’.

      • Old Ben

        No, that’s you being nonsensical.

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         To be fair, we haven’t seen the correlation between how long it takes to earn things and just buying them with cash. If time : cash ratio isn’t outrageous, I have np with the system.

        However, bringing up playtime vs cash is a valid argument, Roger.

        • JJGlyph

          I’ve played many cash shop MMOs. The cash : time ratio is always ridiculous.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tj-Vossos/647768691 Tj Vossos

    ‎”That gold is coming from other players. So somebody must have an abundance of gold if he trades it to a player. The system is not adding new gold from the outside.” 
    ~ Martin Kerstein in response to fears that it will give people more gold than everyone else at equal points in the game and screwing up the economy

  • http://twitter.com/Master10K Master10K

    This system really is the best way to combat gold sellers in games, because the only reason why people use their cash to buy gold is because they have money for it and they’d rather use that money instead of time, yet there is no other way to acquire gold, other than these dodgy 3rd party sites. With the system ArenaNet are going for, the players that want to buy the gold will get the gold and in doing so ArenaNet gets their cut of the share and so does the hard working player that grinded for that gold.

    Sure there may be issues with it but that is why they are testing it in the net beta test. Also I doubt the whole Siege Equipment for IRL cash thing will become an issue, seeing how easy it was for the Press to earn enough gold for the equipment, within a few hours.

    • JJGlyph

      Why is everyone condoning gold selling? If you bought yout r9 tiger and 1000 ectos on ebay in GW1, you’re shunned by the community. When did buying gold become ok? Players should be banned for doing it, not encouraged.

      • MMO_Doubter

         I agree, but there are few gamers around now. They are shoppers now. Buying their cheat codes from the company.

        • Old Ben

          Is that what you tell yourself when someone beats you?

          “Cheaters, they’re all cheaters!”

          I think I’ve met you on Counter-Strike. 

      • Old Ben

        Most of the “community” doesn’t really give a crap. They’re too busy playing the game and having fun. Just because you worry about what other people have doesn’t mean everyone else worries about what you have. 

        Chances are, if you buy your way to maximum level and if you buy your gear, you probably won’t be a very good player, due to lack of experience (and that’s why other people might not want to play with you – it has nothing to do with what you have, it has to do with what you lack). 

        Gold sellers (and power levellers, and people selling loot cards on eBay, and so on) have been around for ages. There’s no way a game developer can keep track of every post on every forum where some player might promise another “if you pay me $50, I’ll mail you that rare BoE sword I got” (or gold, or mount, or help you with some achievement, or whatever). The only thing they can do (and the thing they should do, as a matter of principle) is design a game that is fun to play. And if the game is fun to play, only idiots will pay to skip ahead. Would you pay to skip half the chapters in a book? Would you pay to make sex with those hot twins end sooner? Well, if you would, then it’s your loss (and it indicates that you probably don’t really enjoy the game, and should be doing something else with your time – such as making money to buy a different game). 

        When people say “time is money”, that isn’t just some random mantra. Most activities involve a choice between the two. If you decide to stay at home playing a game (instead of getting a job, or a second job), you are effectively “paying” (giving up extra income) to improve your character. The only games where that doesn’t happen are games that don’t involve any sort of character development over time. Even then, the extra time you spend playing gives you more experience, and (presumably) makes you a better player, so you’re still “gaining an advantage” from the time you spend playing instead of earning more money. 

        So, as long as the rules are clear, most people are fine with having some game items sold for cash. They’re not required to play the game, no one forces you to buy them, and in fact, in GW2 (unlike what happens in other games, like TF2 or WoW), every item in the “cash shop” will be accessible for “free” (by investing your time to make in-game gold instead of investing that same time to make out-of-game cash).

  • http://twitter.com/JooLaPrime Joel Crawford

    Everyone had to know ANet would have a solid micro
    transaction element in GW2. How else would they be making money to keep the
    game alive.

     

    I’m glad they’ve incorporated the system from inception
    instead of an afterthought like they did in GW1. Looking forward to learning
    more about how this works after the next test.. assuming its allowed to be
    discussed.

    • JJGlyph

      Incorporating the system into the game is what I don’t like about it. I don’t want to see trade chat being spammed by gem sellers. Worse than gold farmers bc they don’t get banned.

      I play games to escape financial concerns.

      • http://twitter.com/andrwarrior Andrew Crosthwait

         then play quake, or plants vs zombies… a game which has no economy. There are tons of games out there!

        How do you know that there will be a trade chat? i’ve seen no evidence of this. Nor have i seen evidence that there will be no way to disable or hide a general city chat.

        Incorporating the system into the game makes the most logical sense.

        I, for one, also had concerns about the whole system. But, a currency flowchart really calmed my woes. This is a picture that visually describes all of the currencies in-game

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=735524282 Thomas ‘Renny’ Renshaw

    I really hope this helps keep Gold sellers from Gws2

    • JJGlyph

      Every player is a potential gold seller now. lol. How is that better?

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         Well, to be fair… You can’t sell gems for real money. Gold farmers sole purpose is to make real money, so this system goes against that by basic design.

        • MMO_Doubter

           If you are opposed to gold farmers, then why they are farming it is irrelevant.

        • Azzras

          So what you’re saying is ANet is a goldfarmer?

        • MMO_Doubter

           I think you mean “you can’t (within the rules of the game) sell gems for real money”.

          Is there any system in place to prevent farmers from selling gems just as others sell gold in other games?

        • JJGlyph

          Yes you can. Gems are tradeable. Go to a 3rd party website and you’ll see gems for cheaper prices than in game. Happens all the time in cash shop games.

      • Old Ben

        > Every player is a potential gold seller now.

        Really? So how do I make real money from selling gold in the game? Please explain.

      • pc11

        you need to go listen/read to the articles again. You cant turn ingame gold inot real currency only the other way around.

      • http://www.MasterRenny.com/ Thomas Renshaw

        How are they? :S

  • http://www.facebook.com/wFlett William Flett

    GW2 isn’t “Pay to Win”, it’s “Dodge to Win”

  • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

     This guy gets it… :)

  • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

     Sure, I’ll correct you… ANet already said blueprints won’t be expensive. Therefore anyone who takes WvW as serious as you’re basing your assumption off of will already have the gold to buy said blueprints. Cash *option* =/= Pay 2 win.

    Cash *option* =/= Pay 2 win.

    • MMO_Doubter

       Undesirable stuff in a cash shop doesn’t sell. The game will be designed so that the cash shop items are wanted.

      • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

         Many people want cosmetic items… Just because you don’t wont them, doesn’t mean they don’t sell well. Character slots, server transfers, and other convenience items also sell well.

        • MMO_Doubter

           They sure do, but power sells much better.

          • Old Ben

            Thanks for making your views clear. Now we know we should never buy a game designed by you. Luckily, you don’t work for ANet.

  • GammaWolf

     I doubt gold will have much of a use in the game.

    It will probably be expensive to get the necessary crafting materials to get epic looking gear, but it will have the same stats as cheap standard stuff.

    Leveling faster doesn’t seem like it will be an advantage in pvp which is the only place it matters. As long as you have 10 skills and full attribute points, which I believe are maxed no matter level in pvp areas, and equal tiered gear then money plays no role.

  • http://www.facebook.com/caufenkamp Coby Aufenkamp

    Now the gold farmers are going to buy the gems with their gold and sell the gems for less than arenanet charges. No way to get rid of them. 

  • Cyclops07

    I pray this is not pay to win. Ive got some money but that shouldn’t give me an advantage over others

    • Old Ben

      > Ive got some money but that shouldn’t
      > give me an advantage over others

      Then I guess you have a major problem with the world economy, and GW2 is the least of your worries. :-P

      • JJGlyph

        Games are escape from real world problems. That’s what makes them great.

        • MMO_Doubter

           It USED TO.

          Not anymore. Sadly.

          The current generation of ‘gamer’s have no concept of a level playing field.

  • ssjjr21

    I don’t see how this system is pay to win, because for one thing.  The items you get from the shop itself doesn’t permanently give your character a power boost.  I don’t know how many times Anet has already stated this.  I’m assuming the buffs are temporary and are only for PvE.

    • MMO_Doubter

       Even if they are temporary and only for PvE, it is still buying power.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

        But what are you “winning” in PvE your supposed bought power? Dude, you must be a seriously miserable person. You should change your name to ‘Negative Nancy’ because you sure don’t seem to look at anything any other way.

        • Old Ben

          When he goes into an instance to kill a dragon, I guess he thinks he’s playing against the people in his own party.

          • dawolv

             You’re right, it seems like everything he says comes down to that “people” are “having an advantage” over him in PvE.

            As ANet said, there won’t be any scales in the game to compare your performance to others, which is nice – since it prevents players from becoming elitists.

          • Old Ben

            Elitists are fine. The real problem is jerks. ;-)

          • MMO_Doubter

             It’s not about me, in particular, Sir. Just the basic concept of fairness in a game. I believe in level playing fields. Some seem to like buying unfairness.

            I approve of the lack of damage meters. I never liked them. They distract players from playing well.

          • Old Ben

            So, you care so much about how you compare with other players, and yet you don’t like damage meters, huh? I wonder why…

        • MMO_Doubter

           TRY to avoid the personal attacks.

          P2W doesn’t literally mean “pay to win” it means buying power. Gaining an advantage over others who don’t pay.

          AFAIK, they have not revealed exactly what will be sold in the cash shop. Let me ask you: IF they sell a potion that gives you a temporary +10% DPS or healing or armour buff, would you consider that to be buying power?

          • JJGlyph

            I’m not concerned with people buying cosmetic items from the cash shop. I’m concerned with people buying gems to trade for gold, then using the gold to buy rare skins, titles, etc. It ruins PvE in my humble opinion.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Actually, I do try to avoid the personal attacks, but when you are so adamant on your continuous crusade of negativity concerning this game and presenting your statements in such a “trolling” way most of the time, I find it very difficult to avoid. 

            And please, stop trying to act like you’re innocent and that you are being wrongly accused or that you don’t deserve to be called out for your actions. You KNOW exactly what you are doing and why you are doing it and you clearly have not fooled anyone. Offering opinions is one thing, what you generally offer is malcontent, disruption, and negativity.

            To answer your question. No, I don’t consider it “buying power”. Not in any meaningful way because it’s still not going to make you “win” because there is nothing to win at in PvE. Unless you are the type that likes to brag about your Damage Meters scores, but if that’s the case, that’s on you. Now if these things were to be available for PvP, then yes I would agree to that assessment but Anet has already stated that those types of things will not be available for PvP.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I know why I am posting, and it is not to troll. I am expressing legitimate concerns with an MMO I once had hope for.

            Do you have a link for someone at ANet stating clearly that buff potions would not be useful in PvP?

            As for PvE – if such buff potions are in-game, then groups/guilds will expect that their members use them.

          • dawolv

            ANet said in PvP (structured that is) everyone will be the same. Same level, same gear same everything. If you can’t believe that it’s your problem!

            WvW is different. it’s ‘supposed’ to be unbalanced, hell, there are even buffs you can earn through spending Influence (in your guild) to karma or you can craft (cook really) potions that will give you a buff (even in WvW) I believe.

            IF these will make you so powerful that you literally blow through hordes of enemies, the community will point that out and ANet will have to fix that.
            As long as it’s a minor buff, who cares?
            There are buffs from WvW on you (even in PvE) the entire time you play anyway, and they are not that OP – so I doubt that, if they implement cash shop buffs, those will be OP as well

          • Old Ben

            WvW uses sidekicking. Everyone gets bumped up to level 80. They don’t get new abilities, since that would mess up their action bars, but they’re scaled in power to be close to level 80 characters, just as level 80 characters get scaled down when they go into low-level zones.

          • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

            There are buffs in GW1 and I’ve never been asked to use them in either HM dungeons or missions by anyone, not friends, not guildmembers, and not alliance members, not in 6 years.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Congrats to you, but that is not typical of MMOs.

          • http://twitter.com/Symph11 Kristian Stær

            First of all, there won’t be any sort of +X% dps/dmg/whatever in the cash shop, cause that’s the kind of advantage they won’t sell..

            Second, even if you buy a +10% exp buff for an hour or something, it’s not really giving you any advantage at all, except you might reach lvl 80 10% faster than everyone else (considering you buy enough of those scrolls, in which case I really don’t care, cause you’re just funding anet for the rest of us) , and what are you gonna do then? Oh yeah, you can go back down and play some of all that stuff you skipped while lvling so incredibly fast.. but wait, the rest of us already played through that while lvling normally, so you didn’t really gain anything there.

            And now you might think; “well, I’m the first lvl 80, so I’m gonna go beat up that big mean dragon”, but too bad for you, that’s not a one man event, that’s a group event, probably an elite group event, so yeah, have fun waiting for another 100 ppl to reach lvl 80 so you can actually do that. That is of course IF that event is even in the game from the start, and not added in a patch a little later, so that ppl get to experience the world before killing the first dragon..

            Finally, about WvW, you get automatically scaled to lvl 80 there, and the only way to get some advantage there is by getting skill points to get more skills and more versatility.. and where do we get the skills? Oh yeah, by doing challenges. Will your exp scroll help you there? Not so much.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Has ArenaNet clearly stated that they will not be selling any buff potions/scrolls/whatever in the game (for gems OR gold)?

          • http://twitter.com/Symph11 Kristian Stær

            Not expressively, but the way they’re wording it hints as much. Can’t say for sure though.

            Either way, gem/cash shop items won’t be available in PvP, and as such only affects PvE, where the case of someone doing 10% more dmg than you makes little to no difference.

          • MMO_Doubter

             If you want to get invited to a dungeon group, it will make a difference whether you have such buff items or not  10% DPS or healing is a big deal in MMO boss fights..

          • dawolv

             If you hate the concept so much, why do you play MMO’s?

            as to the buffs:
            You can add those buffs through cooking (crafting) potions and through guild benefits (spending influence on a temporary buff)

            So like ANet said, anything will be accessable through ingame and RL-cash means, which is fine

          • Old Ben

            > If you hate the concept
            > so much, why do you
            > play MMO’s?

            What makes you think he does? He’s too busy trolling online forums and creating new accounts, he clearly has no time to actually play anything.

          • JJGlyph

            And what about buying gems to trade for gold. Then using that gold to buy things in WvW. We know gold is a MAJOR factor in WvW.

          • http://twitter.com/Symph11 Kristian Stær

            They already stated that earning enough gold for blueprints for WvW would be beyond easy. Besides, the blueprint is only half the story (and that’s an overstatement), cause you still need the supply, alot of supply. If you watched some of the beta videos of siege weapons being built, you will notice how one siege weapon takes several full player capacities to build, which is not so much a problem for the weapons on the walls of keeps etc., but when you have to get those supplies to a siege weapon out in the field far from one of your own keeps, it could be a much larger problem than the gold cost of the blueprint. Also you have to defend the weapons while they’re being built, which is a far bigger concern than the gold.

            About the dps: This is true for MMOs such as WoW, but it will play no role in a game such as GW2, where it is far more important that you know how to dodge at the right time, and use your skills at key moments, rather than bashing out a little more dps. Besides Anet stated they won’t support ANY third party addons, which means there no way to tell whether or not you’re doing more or less dps. Just because someone has a dps boost scroll, there is no guarantee he will deal more dps than someone without, and you have no way of telling, so it’s a waste of money, and I don’t see any way it will get a hold in the game as something required by the community.

            And yes, I know hints are not very reliable, it’s what it sounds like, we’ll have to wait and see what it is.

          • MMO_Doubter

             If there is no damage meter function, than that will be a big plus.

            As for buffs, will you be able to see your teammate’s buffs?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Pat-Hamilton/4809000 Pat Hamilton

    As long as I have fun playing the game, I don’t really care.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

      But isn’t that just ignorance? Maybe not ignorance, but I can’t help but feel you’re over-simplifying the issue. Surely it’s all linked.

      To enjoy the game, surely you need to feel like you’re earning something, be that via getting good loot, levelling up, by winning in battles in PvP… etc.

      Say if you’re a player who doesn’t have much spare real-world money to invest in the game; and you’re playing with people that do: you need to ask yourself some questions.

      Firstly, you need to consider if you will be at a disadvantage as a result. If so, how much of a disadvantage are you going to be at, in relation to other paying player? Also, how much fun are you now actually able to have as a result of this disadvantage?

      Now I’m not saying that this is going to happen with Guild Wars 2; but that’s precisely because the potential customer base care enough to pressure ArenaNet to give us a system we can live with.

      The player/consumer ultimately wants to enjoy the game, and will surely only purchase it if they feel like they will enjoy it.
      Anet/NCsoft ultimately want to turn a profit from selling their product.

      Thus, it’s in our best interest to give feedback on their proposed ideas for the game, so that we can buy a game which we enjoy, and it’s in their best interest to listen to, and hopefully address, this feedback, in order to sell more copies of the game, and sell more gems in the cashshop.

      Therefore, In my opinion, the importance of the in-game economic system that ArenaNet decide to implement simply CANNOT be overstated.

      • GoodAndy

        “To enjoy the game, surely you need to feel like you’re earning something, be that via getting good loot, levelling up, by winning in battles in PvP… etc.”
        Why is it that the mentality to enjoy a game is to get some kind of loot? Having fun is having fun regardless of the carrots on the end of the stick.

        “Firstly, you need to consider if you will be at a disadvantage as a result. If so, how much of a disadvantage are you going to be at, in relation to other paying player? Also, how much fun are you now actually able to have as a result of this disadvantage?”
        No. You won’t be able  to buy power. Gold doesn’t mean you’ll get the best gear. Think about if we lived in something like Guild Wars 2. Do you think a little measly shop would sell the best weapon in the world? Or do you think a wizard would have created something priceless? Something that is earned with respect or good “karma”. You buy the good stuff with Karma.  Also, stats aren’t that big of a deal. It’s more about how you play.

        By the way, I’m not trying to argue. I just didn’t quite fully agree with a few small things you said.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

          I agree with the points you’ve just said; but I feel like you’ve missed the point I was trying to make.

          Statements such as:  “as long as I have fun, I don’t care” seem too simplified to me. It doesn’t really make logical sense either.

          I mean; I want to have fun playing too, and that’s precisely why I care about this issue.

          Surely the game is ‘fun’ because of certain factors that one cares about; be that the gameplay, the art direction, the story, character development, etc.

          Since this an MMORPG; we must consider the in-game economy (of which the cash shop is a big part of) as one of these important factors. It could make or break the game, for me at least. It could mean the difference between me buying it or not. I’m sure this is the case for many others, as evidenced by many of the comments on here.

          This whole site is about conveying news about games, and then people leave comments and discuss it. And that’s why I don’t understand how so many people ‘liked’ (thus presumably, agreeing with) Pat’s inital comment.

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             I enjoyed WoW for a loooong time before I even knew there was an Auction House. I may be an MMO vet now, but sometimes we gotta step back and just enjoy the simple things.

            I understand your point, but it doesn’t apply to everyone. You’re almost saying it’s wrong to not take a game’s economy seriously… Remember, it is just a game.

            This is coming from a hardcore gamer. Demon’s Souls, BF3, MMO raiding, all that… Let’s not forget this game has no sub. :)

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

            It has no sub, which is why I’m really looking forward to it. I’m pretty much in a situation right now where I can’t really afford to
            pay another subscription. Well; theoretically I could, but it wouldn’t seem smart.

            It is just a game, but we’re paying REAL money for it, and the cash shop involves REAL money.

            In the real world, we can choose to just step back and enjoy the simpler
            things, regardless of the economy of our world, but that can become
            rather difficult, if, for instance; you lose your job, or the tax rate
            increases, or a new law comes in to force, etc.

            I like the fact that GW2 will only charge for the box, and then there is no obligation for me to pay anything more. I’m not saying I won’t; I just like the fact that the money isn’t coming out of my account, like clockwork, every month.

            So I don’t want to end up almost spending as much as ( or worse, more than) a sub each month because I feel like I can’t fully enjoy/experience the game without it.

            I wouldn’t even consider buying a game that employed this tactic.

            I know Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing this… but I think it’s important that we (the people concerned about Pay2Win games) make it clear that if it did, we wouldn’t buy the game, and if we already had purchased it, we’d be very annoyed and would not buy any further NCsoft/Anet titles.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Pat-Hamilton/4809000 Pat Hamilton

            Didn’t think I would cause such a deep discussion. Let me clear up some things.  I don’t play mmos too much.  I think WoW may be the most boring time I have ever had playing a game.  Felt like “Hey, spend a bunch of time leveling up all the way so that you can have fun.”  Well I don’t play games so that I can grind grind grind to max level.  And to that point, I don’t really care about someone leveling up faster than me, if leveling is fun in itself.  I feel like they may even be missing out because they leveled up too fast.

            I had fun with Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars promises to be fun all the way through no matter what level you are.  If that promise is kept, I don’t care if someone can buy something to level fast than me.  Now if they added something where I could only get into the fun dungeons if I paid an extra 10 dollars, yes, I would be upset.

          • JJGlyph

            Actually, the official blog post mentions selling content. Sounds like you may be paying 10 bucks to do a dungeon afterall.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            That is not what it says. “You get a complete and playable game no matter what, but we think we can provide additional content and services that you’d be happy to pay for.” Sure, you can interpret the word “content” as them saying dungeons, but you know that is not what they were saying. Content is items like xp boosts, vanity items, etc. I just don’t understand the “conspiracy” way of looking at this.

          • JJGlyph

            Didn’t you play Guild Wars 1? You had to purchase things in the cash shop to get access to the Bonus Mission Pack. Sorry, but all this blind faith in Anet disgusts me sometimes.

            Have they made a great game? Yes. Are they perfect? No.

          • dawolv

             The game was complete though before.
            If they add things later and make you pay for it than that’s ok. I rather pay for content DLC style (a few months after release) than paying subs up front and then getting force-feed something I probably don’t even want.

            If they sell a dungeon add-on in GW2 and I’m not a huge dungeon player I just don’t buy it.
            If I payed a sub and they serve me a dungeon that I’m not interested in it’s like you pay a random guy to do your shooping and he buys you peanuts eventhough you’re allergic or something

          • MMO_Doubter

            There are, indeed, pros and cons to both systems.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

             care to point them out? Its not so muich the systems as it is the way they are implemented…lol

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/WTXIN3D4TLTPYC2LDB5QG5QJVA Graham

            the bonus mission pack was single player only. so.. whatever. i never bought it, and never felt left out.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I do not object to solo content as DLC, providing it does not grant acces to exclusive item/abilities.

          • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

            If a game releases an expansion, is it an incomplete game? Was it an incomplete game at launch? Would you view it as incomplete if you knew that there would be expansions in the future?

            I’m just curious as to how far down the rabbit hole this goes.

          • greygoo

            i guess my thoughts on this would be that 4 expansions kept me quite busy and entertained for nearly 6 years so i think it’s safe to say a-net has gone above and beyond before i still have no reason to doubt them.

          • greygoo

            did you hear what you said? say it again…. bonus mission pack… bonus…. bonus….. need to hear it again?

          • MMO_Doubter

             You can’t have a complete game, and have to pay extra for content. That is a contradiction in terms.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            That’s just it though, they are launching with a complete game. Why should you not have to pay for EXTRA content. Self entitled much? Between you and JJGlyph, you’d think that Anet has promised that everything that ever will exist in the game is supposed to be included and totally free in the game over it’s lifetime. All I can say it WTF? What are you guys wanting, anything and everything to be included out of the box without ever having to spend another dime? I can understand some of the concerns but you guys are taking it to the EXTREMES! Do I think Anet is perfect? NO! Do I think that they may fall short on some of the hype? Yes! But that doesn’t mean they aren’t going to, in the very least, be offering a game that dares to break the same old, tired mold. You guys to to take a step back and get your fricken priorities strait. I feel you both are approaching this entire game from the wrong angle. To be honest, to hear you both talk about GW2, I’d rather you both just pass on the game entirely, because it’s clearly not going to live up to your LOFTY expectations.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I do not object to large occasional expansions.

          • greygoo

            you oviously never followed them through gw1 you can have that.  infact arena net has always exceeded most expectations not the other way around.  you should get familiar with this awsome company and their awsome work.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Actually neither of us knows what they mean by “content”.

            Since they mention ‘convenience items’ separately, I think you will see dungeons and/or quest lines for sale.

          • dawolv

             Well, I don’t see an issue with that. Everyone get’s the same game on launch from there you can take 2 paths:

            1) SUb-based MMO’s will suck in your money and after a while extra content will be added into the game for free
            The quality of the content may vary, but you payed up front for it.

            2) with B2P and microtransaction, the release a new content, let’s say a instance, and you as a costumer can decide wether you want to add that or not.
            If you don’t care about dungeons you don’t have to buy it.

            Where things get a little tricky is with PvP-Mappacks, since they split up the community (as in AC:revelations)

          • JJGlyph

            That’s fine if you have no friends. DLC in an MMO is never a good idea. It creates a rift in the community. It suddenly becomes: sorry we can’t play together bc we’re doing dungeon x.

            Monetized content should always come in large chunks (expansions) to reduce community disparity.

          • dawolv

             but that’s the thing.
            if you’re a dungeon guy, chances are you bought the dungeon too and continue to play with your friend.

            If you are not, chances are you friend wanted to play any dungeon and you just don’t like dungeons.

            Sure, it’s a double edged sword, but I think this model is fas better than paying the company up front with subs and then you get a content that you afterwards feel wasn’t worth the money

          • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

            “DLC in an MMO is never a good idea. It creates a rift in the community.
            It suddenly becomes: sorry we can’t play together bc we’re doing dungeon
            x.”

            You mean like every expansion ever? Because, yeah. That’s what non-free content does. It doesn’t matter if it’s DLC or boxed. You also can’t play Eye of the North with friends unless you buy it. Or Factions, or Nightfall.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I completely agree with this point.

          • Old Ben

            > DLC in an MMO
            > is never
            > a good idea. 

            Yeah, down with downloadable content! We want the game to stay exactly as it was on the day it was released!

            /sigh

          • greygoo

            a-net has always handled this gracefully and i would expect no less now.  untill they start proving me wrong i’m behind them 110%.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Pat-Hamilton/4809000 Pat Hamilton

            I didn’t see anywhere in the post where they said anything like that.  In fact, that would break their unfair advantage principles.  It talked about content as in buying things to make you look pretty and things for time saving.

              “We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items.”

            If they want to sell expansion packs like Guild Wars 1, I am fine with that.  I wouldn’t even call those expansions.  Full games is more like it.

            If they complete the game, I would rather them keep making more stuff than to just abandon it, even if it costs me something. It’s like saying I bought the first game in the series, I should get every other game in the series for free. I got Guild Wars 1, give me Guild Wars 2 for free.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Whose definition of “unfair advantage” do you think ANet will be using? Theirs or yours?

          • http://twitter.com/c3o5nnect J

             I think my definition is similar to theirs. >.> Roger

          • MMO_Doubter

             What IS their definition?

          • Old Ben

            > Actually, the official blog
            > post mentions selling content.

            Of course they’ll be selling content. Anything that gets added to the game is “content”. You think that by buying the game you are automatically entitled to every new item, zone or dungeon that they make in the future, for all eternity…?

            Maybe you’d prefer to pay a monthly subscription just to avoid losing access to the game, in addition to paying for the new areas…?

          • Old Ben

            > Statements such as: “as long as I have fun,
            > I don’t care” seem too simplified to me. It
            > doesn’t really make logical sense either.

            It makes perfect logical sense. The primary purpose of a game is to amuse its players.

            What constitutes “fun” for each player might be different, but “being fun” is still what it’s about.

            > To enjoy the game, surely you need to feel like you’re
            > earning something, be that via getting good loot,
            > levelling up, by winning in battles in PvP… etc.

            No.

            If you need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to behave like a good person, then you’ll never truly be a good person (you’re just pretending because you want the reward at the end).

            If you need a game to bribe you at the end (with virtual goods or achievements, with a sense of superiority over others, or whatever), then you don’t really like the game, you just like to “win”. 

            > I don’t understand how so many people ‘liked’
            > (thus presumably, agreeing with) Pat’s inital comment.

            Because they care about having fun, not so much about “winning” or about comparing themselves with other players.

          • dawolv

            > If you need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to behave like a
            good person, then you’ll never truly be a good person (you’re just
            pretending because you want the reward at the end).<

            Best summary ever!

          • greygoo

            you sir are great!!!!!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/kuno.bednarz Jan Bednarz

    I think this is the best solution tbh. They take the power of goldsellers and make it their own. First of all that solves alot of issues that players have, the spamming, the potential hacking, the insecurity of going through a third party?! Also, as Rae posted they may try and sell at a lower price, but you know what that will do? The overall price for “gems” will drop. Why would you buy a gem for 4k off players if you could buy it for 3.5k off a goldseller? prices will go down and at some point it won’t be lucrative for the goldsellers anymore…and they will drop out, trust me.
    This is simply how a free market works and as soon as the sellers notice they’re not making any profit in GW2 they will pull off their farmers to farm in wow again where they’re actually making money.
    Seeing the problem as a game developer/publisher I think this is the best solution, as a gamer I can see how people would be sceptic and there will be a rough few months after launch but, things will equilize and sort themselves out.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=727178733 B-Wicked Darky Ness

    This seems like pay to win. There WILL be people who will pay for gold and use that to buy the best crafted gear or the best drops first. Then those same players will stack up on Karma while those who are still trying to get their gear will be grieved while they try to level. Rich people who don’t want to spend time to earn their gear and weapons will destroy the game. The only way this might be acceptable is if they wait 3-6 months for people to earn their gear and then implement the gems in their store.

    It just seems like NCgreed has struck again.

    • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

      You can’t grief people in GW2. Either you are helping out, or you are irrelevant. That’s simply how dynamic events work. Furthermore, all max-level gear is equivalent. You can’t craft “better” gear than other gear you can buy from a regular merchant at max level, or get “better” dropped gear than you can buy from a regular merchant at max level. The most exclusive gear will be dropped in explorable mode dungeons and won’t be able to be purchased.

      • JJGlyph

        “You can’t grief people in GW2.”

        How about using my portal to send my allies into a horde of aggro? Or equipping a min-damage sword and attacking so that an enemy becomes twice as hard for someone.

        There will ALWAYS be griefing in MMOs.

        • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

          First of all, we don’t know that an enemy would be twice as hard just because two people are attacking it; it could become 30% harder, or 50% harder – we have no insight into those numbers, so you are merely choosing the worst possible speculatory scenario.

          Second of all, if you are equipping a “min damage sword”, and doing enough damage to make an event scale up, YOU’RE HELPING. That’s the point. Congratulations, you earned a bronze reward and helped me out while doing so. Thanks!

          • MMO_Doubter

             You might call it helping. A lot of us would call it exploiting.

          • dawolv

             He’s right though. The events only scale on a base of damage and hel being distributed, not by the number of people playing.

            If you stand idly by and hit you 1 key every minute or so neither will you get any participation points, nor will the event scale.

            It’s kind of said we have to repeat these systems back to you, since ANet talked about them in great detail over and over

          • MMO_Doubter

             That’s fine. I hope the system works well. It is a hard thing to get right.

            Contribution is especially difficult to track well in open PvE. Will healing and damage absorption be tracked, or just damage done?

            As for listening to ANet devs – I no longer listen to sales pitches from MMO devs. Had too much of that from WarHammer Online and WoW.

          • dawolv

             I believe in the Demo from gamescom 2010 (which I played) they had only Damage as the main scale factor, but since then they we’re working on adding healing, ressurecting and doing secondary mission objectives to count towards participation points and scaling – so I assume, since they are in Beta now, that they got that sorted out

    • Old Ben

      > those same players will stack up on Karma
      > while those who are still trying to get their
      > gear will be grieved while they try to level.

      Some people started playing WoW  / SWTOR / Eve Online / whatever before me, and they used that time to reach a higher level and get gold before I had a chance to. Oh, life is so unfair! Blizzard, Bioware, CCP, ANet and the government must prevent anyone from doing anything in a game until I have a chance to join in, otherwise I’ll cry!!

      P.S. -  Congratulations on creating another account to troll on Gamebreaker. Going for the record, eh?

    • dawolv

      Ok – so when they have the best gear and possibly paid to get to lvl 80 instantly, why did they win?

      They just paid ANet to miss out on 90% of the game – the level experience.
      So really, they lost!

      The best part of a MMO or any RPG is that moment something slightly better drops and you feel a little more powerful. Everytime the level up “bing” sounds you get excited about the new stat points you get to spend.

      So why would anyone “win” by skipping through all that?
      The “best gear” is waiting for you at the end of the game, wether you have disposable income or not. If you choose to skip the fun experience on the way there it’s you fault.
      If I we’re ANet- I’d love making money of those idiots.

      Besides, even if you’ve skipped everything, since the game scales you back down in low-level areas you can still experience everything later.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Why would people skip? To get to max level WvWvW as soon as possible.

        • dawolv

           So ok, let them skip to 80 right away.
          They have an “advantage” for a few weeks, then the community will catch up to them.
          At some point, people will start rolling alts.
          If you go into WvW as a level 10 you probably lose against anyone.
          but if youre a level 50 against a level 80 I doubt that the difference will be imiedately noticeable.

          WvW is meant to be unbalanced.
          and really, in a fight where 30 vs 30 faceroll each other, I doubt that the few who have purchased their way up to 80 will even be noticed by others.

          You just gotta learn to pick your fights!

          • MMO_Doubter

             “WvW is meant to be unbalanced.”

            That is a very pessimistic view of a major game system.

          • dawolv

             It’s actually a quote from C. Johanson.

            It’s unbalance in the sense that 200 Level 80 people can anahilate a group of 10 Level 10 players running around picking daisies.

            ONCE all characters will be level 80 (assuming noone will ever roll alts) then the only imbalance in WvW will be the number of groups.

            Basically, if you keep dying in WvW coz your only level 10, you are either picking your fights wrong or you are just a bad player

            Both failure types will have to result in changing your strategie: Running around in groups or avoiding fights against enemy players until you have at least your Elite skill and some major traits. (around lvl 40 I believe)

          • MMO_Doubter

             Thanks for the quote.

          • Old Ben

            The reference to WvW being “designed to be unbalanced” referred to the fact that it’s meant to be playable even when the numbers are unbalanced (i.e., when one faction has more players than another). It has nothing to do with levels; all players are levelled to 80 when they join.

          • Johnt35

            Players are not level 80 when they join, they start out as either level 1 from a new character or from whatever level their main character queued in at.  It’s been stated hundreds of times that players have the ability to level up from lvl 1 to lvl 80 strictly in WvW if they wanted to, without ever playing PvE

            But yes you are correct about the number of players being unbalanced still means its playable.

            PS: The sidekick system is strictly for dungeons, player instances pve zones and pvp (not WvW, but 5v5 for example).

          • MMO_Doubter

             The number were unbalanced in Wintergrasp – the WoW form of RvR (WvW), and it was FAR from playable on servers with a faction imbalance.

            If there is no balanced pop cap in WvW, I anticipate major balance issues.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            There will be a limited number of players from each server allowed in each map.  Last number I heard was around 100 players from each server on each map, and they’re working every day to push that number up.

            So WvWvW has 3 separate servers playing across 4 maps… each map will allow ~300 players on it at any one time. 

            So that, and the fact there are 3 sides to the battle, should hopefully help mitigate any massive imbalances that we’ve all experienced in other MMOs.

          • Old Ben

            > Wintergrasp – the
            > WoW form of RvR

            Yeah, that special form of realm vs. realm where every player is from the same realm…

          • Old Ben

            From the GW2 wiki and developer interviews:

            “World PvP takes place in the Mists, a proto-reality between worlds and realms such as Tyria. It will be accessible to characters almost immediately from character creation. However, players joining World PvP enter with their current equipment and skills and their level is increased to level 80 automatically through sidekicking.”

            “In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.”

            “A sidekicked character will still receive experience and equipment that is somewhat equivalent to the actual characters level though not as much as if the character was participating in level appropriate content.”

            “CDAction: Could you please explain how does sidekicking up work in WvWvW?””Eric Flannum: It’s intended to equalize things a bit, but it’s not meant to make you equal too. A level 1 who is kicked up to level 80 is not as good as a ‘real’ level 80 player. And there’s some progression in sidekicking as well. Level 1 sidekicked up to level 80 is worse than level 20 sidekicked up to level 80, which is worse than level 40 sidekicked up to level 80.”

            “When a character is sidekicked up they do not receive any new abilities, but are scaled up in power to be more equal to other players and to access the higher-level content.”
            I’d post links, but this forum blocks posts with URLs (to prevent spam, I guess).

          • MMO_Doubter

             I believe that players who are boosted to 80 are not fully equal to those who are truly 80.

          • Old Ben

            I believe that a player with 6 months’ experience might be better than a player with 6 days’ experience. I believe that a player with a better graphics card might see enemies rendered further away. I believe that three players coordinating their actions might beat four players who don’t. I believe that Omar would beat Chuck Norris. I believe your parents pay for your internet connection so they don’t have to put up with you.

        • Old Ben

          Ignorant troll is ignorant.

          It’s really amazing how you manage to waste your life here and still not read any of the articles or watch any of the videos. If you had, you would know what sidekicking is. 

          Players entering WvWvW get automatically levelled up to 80.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            Don’t be so quick to toss out names.

            Yes player’s level gets boosted to 80 when they enter WvWvW, but only their stats and HP are boosted… skills are not unlocked, traits are not unlocked, gear is not unlocked, etc… so a level 1 boosted to 80 will not be useless, but will not really have a chance against a true level 80 with all skills unlocked, all trait points, and better gear.

          • Old Ben

            If a level 1 had exactly the same abilities as a level 80, then the concept of “levels” wouldn’t make any sense, would it? Remember that WvW includes both PvP and PvE elements, and enemies drop loot. In structured PvP you get all skills and a set of gear, even if your character’s “real” (PvE) level is 1.

            As to “a level 1 player boosted to 80 not having a chance against a true level 80″, that’s just speculation on your part. You haven’t played the game yet, and no one has made a real comparison.

            Even in WoW, where stats increase exponentially with levels, and where no level equalization takes place, I’ve seen certain 70 players repeatedly beat less experienced level 80s in duels (where the level 80 had nearly 4x more HP). If they had had the same attack power / spell power and the same HP, they would have danced all over them, even though the level 80 had a lot more abilities and talents. Once you factor in teamwork, skill and experience becomes even more important than stats. 

            The real reason why a “real” level 80 has an advantage over “sidekicked” level 80s is that the “real” level 80 will have more experience (especially if he levelled up in PvP).

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            I’m not speculating, I’m paraphrasing the developers.

            From their Feb 16th Blog post about WvWvW by Mike Ferguson:
            “The level-adjustment system won’t let a level 1 character go head-to-head against a level 80 character with much chance of victory—a level 80 character is still going to have more bonuses on their gear and access to a full complement of utility and elite skills that players just don’t have at lower levels. This is not to say that the high-level character will one-shot the level 1 player, but they will have a clear advantage.”

          • Old Ben

            Why do you insist on comparing level 80 and level 1 characters? How long do you think you’ll be level 1 for? 

            The point of sidekicking isn’t to make the two most extreme levels (1 and 80) exactly identical, it’s simply to bring different levels closer together in terms of overall power. 

            Let’s see what else the developers say in that same blog:

            “Any character below level 80 will be adjusted so they are roughly equivalent in power to what they would be at level 80. This makes combat among characters of any level not only possible, but actually fun!”

            “Anybody can man a siege weapon, help repair walls, or go hunt down enemy dolyaks, so even new characters can still be useful in the Mists – as long as they pick their fights wisely. Fights are rarely one-on-one affairs, so if you’re just starting out, you’d be wise to find some teammates to fight alongside you as there definitely is strength in numbers.”

            In other words, the situations in which a level 1 character “has” to go one-on-one against a level 80 are likely to be extremely rare (because characters won’t be level 1 for long, and because WvW is about teamwork). And, even then, a max-level character will apparently be unable to 1-shot a min-level one (compare that to WoW, for example).

            If you prefer to totally bypass levelling and PvE, you can always go into structured PvP, where you get a full set of skills and gear, same as everyone else.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            I’m only comparing low level and true level 80 characters because that’s what this sub-thread was discussing.

            What started this was someone saying people would want to level as fast as possible for WvWvW. Then you said that was ignorant and you get bumped to level 80 for WvWvW, implying there is no need to actually level to 80 since you’re side-kicked up, and I was just trying to point out that while that’s true you’ll be at a big disadvantage as a side-kicked, low lever player so the original point is true and players would in fact want to level as fast as they can to minimize that disadvantage.

          • Old Ben

            No one is going to level instantly from 1 to 80 in PvE and have all the skills, so the comparison between a level 1 and level 80′s abilities is irrelevant. If you want to compare players who levelled with and without a 10% XP boost, all else being equal, you need to compare level 73 players sidekicked to 80 with players who actually reached 80 in the same time (thanks to the XP buff). And that difference is going to be almost unnoticeable. In other words, a 10% experience boost is going to be virtually irrelevant (even assuming it’s active all the time, from level 1 to level 80).

            If you want to compare level 1 players, then you need to compare them, at most, to level 2 players (and that would correspond to a 100% XP boost, which I doubt any item will give you). No one is going to get from 1 to 80 in the time it takes you to get from 1 to 2, regardless of what buffs they have, so the comparison between a level 1 and a level 80 is meaningless, and you know it.

            Our resident troll spent two days posting here without even realizing that sidekicking applied to WvW (look at his older posts), and the post I replied to clearly referred to levelling, not to acquiring better gear. I said that in WvW every player gets levelled up to 80, and that’s true. I never said players would get a full set of gear or fully unlocked skills in WvW; that only happens in structured PvP. If levelleing automatically improved your equipment in PvE, there wouldn’t be much sense in mobs / bosses / WvW enemies dropping new gear.

            In PvE and WvW (which is a mix of PvE and PvP) sidekicking bumps your level (base character stats), but you keep the gear and the skills you have, and you get drops appropriate for your “real” level. If you want to unlock all your abilities, you need to complete challenges.

    • Johnt35

      This game is horizontally played – you start from the left (the beginning) and end at the right (the end), there are no diagonals.  This would mean they just payed to skip the game, and it doesnt even make their character stronger than anyone elses.  This game is not Pay to Win

  • http://www.facebook.com/benoit.chalifoux Benoit Chalifoux

    But what if someone would buy hundreds of Gems for example and offer to sell them to others for gold, couldn’t that potentially give him an enormous advantage over others in terms of in-game wealth?

    • Old Ben

      What if I buy hundreds of shoes, and then set up a shop to sell them to other people? Won’t that potentially give me an enormous advantage over other people in terms of wealth?

      Yeah, if people actually buy those shoes (which means they can afford them). If they don’t, it just leaves me a lot poorer and with a shoe surplus. And if I’m successful, other people will start selling shoes too, bringing the price down for everyone (so I profit less, and the people who want shoes can get them for less).

      No one forces other players to buy the gems (just as no one forces you to buy pets from WoW’s pet store, hats from the TF2 Mann Co. Store, etc.). If they buy them, it’s because they think they’re making a good deal.

  • http://twitter.com/DaPhoolz Rp TheFoolz

    What Scott Hawkes said, My thought is mostly.

    ps. How about we have a “Troll” button next to the Like button?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

      Nice idea, but ultimately would be abused. A considerable number of people would simply start flagging people they disagreed with as trolls.

      I prefer this system, as it allows only positive enforcement.

  • Xilmar

    It will definitely help with gold farmers. EVE has a similar thing for it’s subscription, and the game has been goldspam free for a long time as well as almost no account hacking.

    The flip side is that you can get an advantage, but it is indirect and shouldn’t matter in the long run.

  • Nhoj1983

    No worries here.  This isn’t WoW where gear is everything and my experience with Anet in the original was quite good.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000103012311 Zhenhe Zhu

     If i didn’t mind the microtransactions in LoL, I doubt GW2 will put me off.

  • anthony tracy

    I agree with Pat.

    There will always be someone who has more money, or more time than I do to invest in video games. If ArenaNet wants to put in place a measure to control 3rd party gold buying/selling and actually make a profit, kudos to them. If that same system, makes X player level faster than I or Y player look cooler than I, kudos to those players. Hell, even if that system allows Z player to obtain “Weapon-of-unnecessary-awesomeness” which is only attainable in said system, I could still care less, oh and, Kudos to them. I’ll have fun based on my subjective experiences/preferences/time restraints/financial status.

    • MMO_Doubter

      Why tolerate a RL wealth imbalance in a game, though?

      Would you play a video basketball game that only let you play a character as tall and agile as you are  IRL?

      Games don’t HAVE to be like this. We are the consumers. We pay the piper, so we call the tune, if we choose to.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2SZI7MOKR6OET3R6YXZJQC5WGQ John Athon

    Actually, the more I think about it, the system they’ve come up with is perfect…

    …For Anet.

    There won’t be a gem vendor.

    Old Ben points it out.

    [Old Ben

    And
    would completely defeat the point of having two separate currencies
    (i.e., they might as well just price the items in gold). The whole point
    of selling the gems for cash and then letting players sell them for
    gold is to let players determine how much a gem should be "worth".]

    If you don’t see it; I’ll try to clarify.

    If there was a gem vendor, with a set price of gems, we’d all
    essentially just be buying the cashshop items with gold. Which means
    that gold farmers could simply farm gold, and then sell it for a cheaper
    price than what Anet’s sells for it’s gems for.

    e.g. A gem costs $1.00 in the cashshop, or 1,000 gold from the gem
    vendor. As a result, a gold farmer could come along and sell you 1,000
    gold for $0.50; undercutting Anet by 50%.

    Anet doesn’t like this, as they’re losing out on $1 money that they could be making.

    So they’ve made it such that you can only buy the gem for $1.00 at the
    cashshop. So the people that buy gems can sell it for however much gold
    they like.

    So how does the gold farmer make money now?

    Theoretically, a gold farmer can still farm gold, and trade it for gems,
    and then sell these gems for real money. But they can only trade gold
    to players who have already paid for those gems. So Anet isn’t losing
    out on anything.

    …Anet wins.

    Now, there is another option for the gold farmer. He can farm gold, and
    then simply sell the gold to you. But he has nothing to base his price
    off. So he might charge you $0.50 for 1,000 gold, but maybe nobody will
    sell you a gem. Maybe they will, but for 10,000 gold. In which case,
    you’re better off buying the gem for $1.00 off of Anet.

    …Anet wins.

    BUT it’s not just gold farmers who suffer… if there is a large gem demand surplus;

    i.e. a lot more people with gold who want gems, than there are people with gems who want gold…

    then realistically, if you want something from the cashshop, you’re
    either going to have to have to grind to earn a hell of a lot of gold to
    trade to those who have bought gems, or you simply buy gems from Anet

    Who wins? I think we know by now.

    But it doesn’t matter, because the gem shop only sells cosmetic items. Purely cosmetic.

     Y’know, like a Golem Banker…

    or a Chalice of Glory…

    or a Tome of Influence…

     

  • Theyrealone

    And here they count on the axiom: Time = Money

    • JJGlyph

      And if you’re poor and have little of both then you are fucked.

      Amirite?!?! Fuck poor people. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

      • MMO_Doubter

         Pretty much.

      • Old Ben

        Yeah, because playing online games (and GW2 specifically) is required for survival…

      • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

        Why would you be fucked? There is a rather large difference between getting world firsts (which you are not getting if you are lacking on time anyway) and being completely unable to compete without being roflstomped in every arena.

        I’m going to go ahead and assert that there is no advantage you can purchase in GW2 that would result in the latter, and I’d welcome you to prove me wrong.

  • http://twitter.com/Loanel_ Mateusz Machowski

    Guild Wars 2 wont have ANY economy. All the prices will be lift by 100000x, you wont be able to buy anything without farming all day long or just buying it for cash.

    • Old Ben

      Yes, because that is what happened in WoW (where you can buy pets for $10 and sell them for gold at the AH) and Eve (where you can buy subscription time and sell it at the market), right?

      Oh, wait, it didn’t…

  • dawolv

    All of you are whining about buying gold?
    They explained the system very nicely in their blogpost!!

    HOWEVER, all of you seem to miss a fundamental problem with this.
    It’s not about ingame currency, it’s about REAL currency.

    The gems are fixed at a certain price, so the ingame value can fluctuate.
    but what is this real money price based on? US$ or € or both?

    What I’m saying is, if the price is set in stone in US-Dollars that would mean that Europeans will, as a result, always either win or lose money, depending on the current real-world market.

    I’d rather see them having currency zones, where a server, or server group, is bound to a currency and all gems can only be accessed by that one currency for that server group AND if you switch to a server of a different currency, all gems are los (or refunded in the previous currrency)

    All this talk about unfair advantages is BS as far as I’m concerned.
    If it is unfair we’ll only know if they reveal what items will be in the cash shop
    and as I’ve pointed out before, even XP-Boosts and other stuff liek that isn’t really pay to win.
    All you do is skip the game’s experience. Since there is no traditional “endgame” all you work towards is being able to continue to play.
    you wouldn’t buy a SPRPG like Skyrim for 60 bucks and then pay Bethesda another 30 bucks so they provide you a safe-file with the end-boss.

    • MMO_Doubter

      P2W doesn’t literally mean “pay to win” it means gaining an advantage by spending more money.

      I believe some solo RPGs DO sell XP boosts. Can’t say for sure.

      If a solo RPG sold tickets to the final boss, SOME people WOULD buy them.

      • dawolv

         You still don’t get my point.

        the game is an experience. Whats important is getting to the end and beat it – not jsut beating it no matter what.

        If people buy their way past all the cool content in the game they have nothing to show for. Ya, they might have gotten to 80 quite quickly, but they haven’t seen anything in the game.

        Alternatively, if you roll an Alt with the same race as another of your characters and you don’t care about playing PvE again,  than it’s ok if you spend money to be able to play WvW on high level imedeatly.

        It’s not your problem if they skip out on “the fun”, it’s theirs.
        So why do you care?
        They are not enabling people to screw you over for money, you can’t sell gems back for RL-money so all they do is cheat themselves out of an experience.
        It has nothing to do with you, or anyone really

        • JJGlyph

          Fun is relative. You may enjoy going to parties, but I prefer going to a movie.

          Fun for me is competing with other players to get the coolest skins and best achievments. The success of the HoM shows I’m not alone.

          Being able to buy gems and turn it into gold makes my fun vanish. Obtaining cool gear skins no longer has significance.

          And no, it does not matter that karma is not tradeable. Player A will buy karma item with karma. Then player B will buy those items with gold off the Marketplace.

          • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

            But explorable mode dungeon sets will still be all your own, and it appears to me from the way they were talking about it (since the article on loot was about those dungeons) that this is where the prestige is expected to be gained. Not to mention that you can’t buy your way to achievements and (most?) titles we’ve seen in the game.

            (I say “most” since you can already buy your way to several tiers of HoM titles, so the idea is not really new)

            Oh, and I’ve mentioned before, but I’ll say it again here: you can’t turn gems into gold.

          • MMO_Doubter

             “Oh, and I’ve mentioned before, but I’ll say it again here: you can’t turn gems into gold.”

            PRETTY sure you are wrong about this. Since the dev blog stated that you could trade gems to players for gold.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            I think she just means there is no 100% surefire way to convert gems into gold.  If you buy 100 gems you don’t know how much gold you’ll end up with.  Players have to be willing to buy your gems, over someone else’s, so the price must be low enough.  And if people aren’t buying gems off the Trading Post then you might just be stuck with 100 gems you didn’t really want.

          • MMO_Doubter

            That is possible, but I have seen others here make that mistake.

            a good point about having to find a buyer, but I don’t think that will be any problem. Just a matter of HOW MUCH gold they sell for.

          • Johnt35

            A quote from someone else’s post:
             
             
            You cant just spawn gold. You have to take it into the equation that the only way you can buy gold, is if someone is willing to sell it to you. If the game is flooded with people trying to convert gems to gold, the prices will drop dramatically, and if prices are too high, people wont buy it and your stuck with your gems. Something else you have to think about is that whenever someone converts gems to gold, that means someone else is getting gems and can buy the same stuff any RL money spender can. So for everyone trading gems/gold its a win/win situation. Everyone spending rl money is depending on people not spending money to convert it which gives both of them the same “advantage”.

          • MMO_Doubter

             If you are saying that people who buy gems with cash will get no more benefit than those who trade gold for them, I disagree.

        • MMO_Doubter

           The people who don’t want to skip content to max level won’t do it. Those who DO want to, will do so.

          Will GW2 be tracking world/server firsts in dungeon boss kills? If so, then skipping leveling content WILL sell big time.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            If they do track those types of things, I’m sure they will also keep track of whether or not you use those types of items, like xp boosts, etc. which I’m sure would disqualify you from those feats.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Possibly, but it is not typical of an MMO to discourage use of their cash shop.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            How would that be discouraging the use of their cash shop? Dude, think before you post. All those things you mentioned previously can only happen ONCE! Do you really think “World Firsts” are going to drive the sales of xp boosts, etc?

          • MMO_Doubter

             If a guild is going for a world/server first kill, and using such buff items would disqualify them, then they won’t be buying them to use.

            If they don’t disqualify them, then they WILL use them, because you use every advantage you can get when going for first kills.

          • dawolv

             ok – what is a first?!

            Do you mean an extra buff if you are the very very first to kill a boss on your server?

            That sounds completely retarded.
            ANet stated that in PvE there won’t be any measure scales except the participation level for events (gold, silver, bronze) and you can only see your own.

            The bosses spawn randomly or because of events. Why would they reward players for being in the right place at the right time?

          • MMO_Doubter

             First kill is a recognition that your guild was the first to kill the specific boss. No game play benefit is derived.

            It is a pride issue.

          • MMO_Doubter

             First kill is a recognition that your guild was the first to kill the specific boss. No game play benefit is derived.

            It is a pride issue.

          • Old Ben

            That reminds me of the famous conversation between Robert Surcouf and a British naval officer:

            “You fight for money, while we fight for honour!”

            “Sir, a man fights for what he lacks the most.”

          • dawolv

             Ok, I haven’t heard thme talk about this yet, in fact, I didn’t even know that something like this existed, but I think it would be very dumb if they implemented this:
            They were trying to make everyone feel like they’re on the same team in PvE, so this is poisonous for the server community.
            Secondy, world bosses spawn randomly at the end of event chains. If they would give out “firsts” you would need to be lucky to be in the same zone when the event happens.

            However, I can see them maybe doing titles for slaying a certain amount of world bosses.

          • Old Ben

            > Dude, think before you post.

            You’re asking a slug to fly.

          • JJGlyph

            I doubt there will be any significance on world firsts. The open world bosses seemed easy and zergable. The exporable mode dungeons were cleared by two (possibly more) teams with press members in them.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

             No game actually tracks first kills that I know of. That’s always done from outside sources or the community handles that. And what we know so far is that they never mentioned any system that would track such a thing in game so again this is just you spouting nonsense trying to prove your point and failing.

            But even if people want to be known as people who got first kills and they buy these items to help them do it so what? obviously they did everything they could to get the first kill including throwing real money at the game to achieve it. Yay them, and yay me cus now they are helping fund a game I get to play for free! Just another win-win situation for the cheap guy ^.^

          • MMO_Doubter

             WoW does track world firsts for boss kills. Not sure the exact system used, but it is built-in.

            I ASKED if GW2 would track first kills. I did not state that they did.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

             no, they don’t. Yes their system is what is used to tell who killed what first but third party sites use that info to show who killed what but Blizz does not have an in game tracking system of who killed what.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

         your comments are so contradictory >.< you post saying that Anet will put power or sell advantages in the cash shop because people will not buy useless items, then here you just said people will buy pretty much anything including an item that lets them skip most of the game (which is retarded). But this is correct, people will buy anything for whatever reason and it doesn't have to be useful or powerful for people to buy it and thats why Anet doesnt have to sell power in their cash shop.

  • MMO_Doubter

    Is WvWvW equalized in skills/gear or not?

    • Old Ben

      Don’t they have Google there in the Echo Isles?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

      WvWvW will boost everyone to level 80, meaning your stats and HP go up, but your skills are not unlocked, and your gear is not boosted (I believe), so as a level 1 boosted to 80 you won’t be useless, but you’re not going to be nearly as strong as a true level 80.

      • MMO_Doubter

         Thank you. It sounds like a good system. I was a fan of the ‘bolstering’ system in Warhammer Online.

        There seems to be some disagreement on this point, here.

  • http://twitter.com/borded nathan law

    still interested to see how mistfire wolf summon works. if its incredibly useless it works, but if its useless why make it only a temporary summon just make it like a ranger pet that doesn’t fight.

    • Old Ben

      Yes, it’s always annoying when “fun” items have a limited duration. Blizzard repeatedly shot itself on the foot with this. I’m sure most collectors would rather have a unique item that gave them absolutely no benefit in the game (not even at low levels), but which they could show off whenever they wanted.

      • http://twitter.com/borded nathan law

        thats there to, you get the mini rytlock but il still probably stick to my red servitor golem, its more of an achievement than spending money.

    • dawolv

       It’s probably in there to split the gap until you have enough Skill points to buy a “real” Elite skill (since they cost 25 Skill points, not 1-4 like the others)
      SO when you 30 youcna equip something right away – it’s probably not going to be a great skill, but better than nothing

  • Willi Enderle

     This is a message for MMO-Doubter

    I have read almost every comment until now.
    It seems like u were lurking for about 14 hours on this site to spit your hate against GW2 and the community, and i am sick of it.
    Seriously, stop this.
    If you have so many complaints about the game. DONT buy it!
    You are probably the type who buys the game anyway, plays it, and spams the chat full with your hate-comments. Thats very annoying and unnecessary.
    It is good to have some ppl with serious thoughts about the features of the game, BUT its not good the way you do it. It is NOT right to spit on every comment that goes against your opinion.

    Be nice and polite, or leave and spray your hate somewhere else.

    • MMO_Doubter

       You are the one who is spitting. Not me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joao-Vicente/100000881627920 João Vicente

    I don’t see this as a problem. At least not so far as the info we have.

    Lets say.. this guy has money and buys XP Boost…
    Then I can use my gold to buy gems and then buy the XP Boost… takes more time to me probably but I can still do it (just not right away on the first char, but thats ok).

    As long as you CANT buy gear and don’t have exclusive stuff (I mean exclusive dungeons or abilities or something important.. not hats and stuff), its fine to me. If you can mounts and pets I don’t care. even WOW does that. I simply don’t buy them.

    My only concern is how will this affect the economy. How will it all work? like D3 AH? you can buy stuff with gold and gems? or you can only buy/sell gems on the AH and gems are only used for the micro store?

     My concern is that if gems sell for high gold.. and gold is not that easy to get in game.. then everything on AH will be really expansive and anyone who does not pay will be screwed… but I guess its too soon to tell how it will all play out..

  • http://www.facebook.com/HelenbuttersPomfret Helen Ann Pomfret

    Honestly I trust Arena Net to know what they’re doing and as far as the subject of real money for in game money goes, I think something like this is long over due. No gold spammers in my game? Awesome. I’m feeling particularly lazy and I have spare cash so I treat myself to a vanity item or some sort of little leveling boost = happy me. Like Scott said, as long as paying for something with real money doesn’t put someone at a clear advantage over others then I really see no problem at all, if anything I’m quite interested in seeing how this plays out and whether other mmo’s (I know Eve already has a real money/in game money thing going on) will take it on board. 

    • JJGlyph

      So if I bought 1000 ecto, you don’t think that would give me a clear advantage over you? Because that is literally what this system lets you do in GW2.

      Buy gems -> trade for tons of gold

      • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

        You are correct, you would probably have an advantage. But for people that are willing to spend real money are going to do it anyways, whether its through the game or through gold sellers (just take a look at WoW.) And honestly, I could care less if you had an advantage over me because this is a GAME, not a professional sporting event. And seriously, do you really think they will offer items that will provide a huge advantage? Sure, they could, but I really don’t see them doing that. If WoW is any indicator to go by, vanity items alone will bring in a fortune. In all honestly though, with how I’m understanding the system, I don’t see anyone having any real advantage or disadvantage because everyone will have multiple ways of acquiring the things they want; gold, gems (real cash), and karma.

        • JJGlyph

          “And seriously, do you really think they will offer items that will provide a huge advantage?”

          My beef isn’t with what they offer in the cash shop. They’ve said that stuff is cosmetic.

          My beef is with buying gems just to convert it into in-game gold. Then you can buy whatever you want from the Marketplace, even karma items. Karma isn’t tradeable but the items you get with karma are.

          And even if there is no power advantage, you can still buy any elite skin and many of the achievements. That ruins what I play PvE for. Not all of us just play the campaign then roll an alt.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            I can see your point. Hopefully we will get more details on all of this soon, maybe during this next press beta? I’m hoping that Anet listens to everyone’s concerns on this and makes adjustments accordingly. Either way, I don’t think this is going to have much of an effect on my enjoyment of the game overall. Something to keep an eye on though.

          • http://casualdoes.wordpress.com/ Randomessa

            “My beef is with buying gems just to convert it into in-game gold.”

            But you can’t “just convert” it into in-game gold. Someone has to have the gold to give you for it (and be willing to give it to you), first. The gems don’t create the gold. If you buy $1000 worth of gems on day one, they will be worth exactly as much gold as all the little level 5s running around the world are able to pay for it.

          • Old Ben

            Not even “able”, _willing_.

      • snikendelarveføtter

        You cant just spawn gold. You have to take it into the equation that the only way you can buy gold, is if someone is willing to sell it to you. If the game is flooded with people trying to convert gems to gold, the prices will drop dramatically, and if prices are too high, people wont buy it and your stuck with your gems.
        Something else you have to think about is that whenever someone converts gems to gold, that means someone else is getting gems and can buy the same stuff any RL money spender can. So for everyone trading gems/gold its a win/win situation. Everyone spending rl money is depending on people not spending money to convert it which gives both of them the same “advantage”.

      • snikendelarveføtter

        You cant just spawn gold. You have to take it into the equation that the only way you can buy gold, is if someone is willing to sell it to you. If the game is flooded with people trying to convert gems to gold, the prices will drop dramatically, and if prices are too high, people wont buy it and your stuck with your gems.
        Something else you have to think about is that whenever someone converts gems to gold, that means someone else is getting gems and can buy the same stuff any RL money spender can. So for everyone trading gems/gold its a win/win situation. Everyone spending rl money is depending on people not spending money to convert it which gives both of them the same “advantage”.

        • Johnt35

          Amen brother

    • MMO_Doubter

       Define “clear advantage”.

  • ricky hannigan

    So you can earn gems in game or buy them and then one of the options is to trade them for gold? That’s not too bad of an idea to me so long as it’s a secondary option.

    If you could ONLY buy gold with real money that would be a bit different but letting people who have no interest in armor set items (which isn’t me, I love me some cosmetic items) to spend their gems on.

    Plus, as mentioned, you’re not going to boost yourself to one shoting everyone who wonders past you so it is a bit of a difference.

  • MilamberNova

    Seem almost unnecessary to post a comment, almost everything has been talked about already but wanted to share my opininion anyway.

    I think this is a good way to stop a good chunk of third-party sales and that has always been a big problem. This also doesnt mean its pay to win because everything is available if you put the time in and as we all know there wont be any gear that is better than anything you can get in-game.

    Anet have always shown that they hate the pay to win model and would never go down that path, i also dont think there will be any xp-boosts in the shop even though lvl isnt as much a factor in this game. As you said earlier, the in-game items from the deluxe and collectors editions will almost certainly be there, except maybe for the influence boost to your guild.

    I have no problem what so ever to people being able to essentially buy gold, it wont affect my gameplay in any meaningful way except that some people may get some items before me. That still wont do anything because that gear or whatever will always have similar stats to all other things, its just cosmetic.

  • JJGlyph

    My posts about GW are generally positive. In this thread they are mostly negative. I figured I’d take a moment to explain why and see what people think.

    As a company, ArenaNet has kicked a lot of ass. They made a great game that I’ve played for 7 years and have a second coming with innovative ideas.

    But….

    They are not perfect.

    Those of us who’ve played GW1 remember.

    We remember being promised 5 elite areas in ToA and never getting more than 2.
    We remember skill unlocks being sold in the cash shop.
    We remember being required to buy $40 worth of cash shop items to receive the Bonus Mission pack content even though we were promised we’d never have to spend a dime in there to experience the whole game.
    We remember Ursan Blessing and countless other builds breaking PvE for months at a time without ArenaNet even acknowledging it.
    We remember the economy reset. Thousands of ecto, diamonds and rubies were bought dirt cheap and never removed from the economy.

    I could go on for a long time… point is… they are a great company but don’t expect everything to be kittens and rainbows.

    You don’t have to agree with me on the buying gold debate, but think about what features do to a game before you “trust in ArenaNet”.

    • MMO_Doubter

       Welcome to my world. It doesn’t feel very good, does it?

      • JJGlyph

        Unfortunately,I’ve been in your world for a long time on Guru since every topic shows up there. Guru is a frackin warzone bro. Bring your combat boots.

        • MMO_Doubter

           I would not be so foolish to expect anything close to objective discussion on a fansite. I won’t be posting there.

          • snikendelarveføtter

            The fact that you are talking about objectivity puts a smile on my face. I’m surprised the word was in your vocabulary.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dante-Arkanthos/100001686523908 Dante Arkanthos

         Then kill yourself, seems the only legit way out for you realy:P

    • Old Ben

      > We remember being required to buy $40 worth of cash
      > shop items to receive the Bonus Mission pack

      Wait, so you think that buying the game should entitle you to every piece of new content they ever make, forever, free of charge? 

      And no, you weren’t “required to buy $40 worth of cash shop items” to receive the bonus mission pack. Originally, you got it as an extra if you spent $29 on the GW or PlayNC store (you could buy other NCSoft games, it didn’t have to be GW items). Two months later, it became available as a stand-alone expansion pack for $9.99.

      > We remember skill unlocks being sold in the cash shop.

      Aren’t the same skills also available simply by playing the game? By the time the skill unlock pack was released, didn’t thousands of people (probably including you) already have those skills? So what exactly did you lose when the pack was released? 

      Your other points have nothing to do with extra purchases.

      > You don’t have to agree with me on the buying gold debate,
      > but think about what features do to a game 

      You can buy gold (and any tradable item) for real money in just about every relevant MMO (through 3rd party sites). The difference is GW2 (like Eve) also gives you the option to buy those items (including your monthly subscription, in the case of Eve) using in-game gold, without having to spend any actual cash. Apparently you think that’s a bad thing…?

  • Revanhavoc

    I don’t want the heavy hand of game developers ruining the economy and my gold farming.

    Let the market set the prices and supply and demand will eliminate unfair competition or poor sellers.

  • Deathstar2x

    The comments section sure turned into a trollfest fast.

  • Robert Pinney

    Your’ editorial is a little too much of a Anet mouth piece, even if I don’t mind this system.

    Anet and NCsoft (the parent company) are not altruistic, this is not a system intended to remove gold farming.  Gold farming and bots will exist, as other games with similar system show (Eve is not the same, but it’s a close enough example).  In fact, there’s likely more reason to bot gold because of it.  In the end, this system is about making money for a company trying to make as much money as they can.

    This is a hot button subject, that was a horrible piece of editorial commenting (if it was intended to serious).  Reach out to an economist who deals with this type of thing and get their reaction, or can relate to it.  They exist.  Reach out to investors who specialize in this.  Get some credibility and insight 99.9% of the subjective comments otherwise lack.  Small newspapers with no budget can do it, I am sure you can too. 

    It’s harder to be neutral and thorough than it is to be subjectively opinionated, I get it.  Perhaps try anyway.

    • ScottHawkes

       Hi Robert. I am in no way an ArenaNet mouthpiece, I’ve just got a little experience in regards to a similar system in EVE and I think it is a strong one, it makes sense to employ this kind of microtransaction, in my opinion.
      Which is the crux of the matter: it’s my opinion, you have the facts of the story, I gave my view on them. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, which is the point.
      a) I don’t agree that there is more reason to bot in this kind of system as the majority of those who do are from the RMT industry, EVE has some of those issues, but nothing like on the scale of games that use different systems.
      b) One of the things we strive to do at Gamebreaker is bring our view and personality to the topic, it’s what makes us different.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

         And it’s what makes me watch you :D From the first video I watched here at Gamebreaker I have known what kind of reports you guys do and I enjoy them very much. If I want straight facts I would read patch notes >.> (Did you see what I did thar Scott?)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/IJ72UJ7OKVEIGGXYAIN6NU7ZRM thomas

    if guild wars 2 fails(unlikely), it sure as heck won’t be due to unintelligent design choices.  This is another smart move by a company clearly looking to the future of the mmo model.

    • MMO_Doubter

       The future is hell.

  • Cristian Borsa

    Blizzard already beat them to the punch with their D3 RMAH.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Carlos-Moreno/100000967473108 Carlos Moreno

      but D3 isnt an mmo @_@

  • ArcherAvatar

    I’ve been waiting for this shoe to drop since learning vague details about the financial model used by ArenaNet some years ago.

    To be clear; they HAD to make this announcement prior to April 10th or leave themselves open to folks crying foul after they have already forked over their money for the pre-purchase option that will allow them into all subsequent beta weekend events, as well as the three day head-start. The timing of this information is from necessity… they would likely have wanted to hold off longer, and possibly included specific details about exactly “what” can be purchased in the cash shop to avoid at least some of the hysteria due to assumptions being made (perhaps erroneously…)

    Re: Hysteria
    It’s understandable for folks to feel strongly about this topic. Many, many players have had resoundlingly bad experiences with MTs (micro-transactions) in other games, and let’s be honest here, the VAST majority of MTs are basically very poorly handled by the companies attempting to employ them as a means of financially supporting their product.

    Far more MT-based financial models either start off as “abusive” towards their players (or evolve to end up that way) than not. The “money-grab” feeling associated with them is exacerbated considerably by game design practices which “encourage” (*cough* force *cough*) players to make regular purchases in the cash shop to “enable” a more normal / fluid feeling of play.

    I see NO evidence this is the case with Guild Wars 2.

    In fact, quite the contrary… the game is designed around a philosophy of “player skill” exerting more influence than “character power.” You cannot buy player skill. No matter what, that is still earned through time invested, and practice.

    There are no “gear grinds” or similar flawed design systems which are open to abuse from the MTs.

    Numerous folks (at guru forums) have suggested that the proposed system is open to abuse with respect to how it interacts with the “influence” mechanic associated with guilds. However, once again, there is absolutely no logical evidence supporting those claims. At the very worst, we need to wait until we see actual numbers on the rate at which influence is normally earned, and how often it can be “purchased” with gold from NPCs. If, as has been strongly suggested, such purchases are only possible to make on a weekly basis, then there is already a sufficient “governor” on that engine to prevent it from over-revving.

    Conclusion:
    I’ve been very outspoken about my dislike of MTs in general, and my wariness about this financial model being utilized in GW2. If anyone was going to “freak out” about this announcement you would think I would be at the front of that pitchfork/torch weilding mob, but I see nothing in the post by Mike O’Brien to suggest that is the correct response. There are still further details needed about the cash shop, and I withhold the right to pick up my pitchfork when and if that becomes necessary, but at this point, I see nothing to warrant it.

    As currently outlined by Mr O’Brien, the system actually looks like it will benefit both casual and hardcore (with respect to playing time) players which is a pretty neat trick all on it’s own.

  • DoctorOverlord

    I’m looking forward to the discussion on this in GuildCast.

    This was a nice summary, but I disagree that this will really slow down gold farmers.   There are always ways to play the system, they will just find new ones.   Just like iTunes didn’t stop music piracy, but that doesn’t mean companies can’t find ways to get some of those lost profits.  

    It was good to hear my basic concern, will the Cash Shop offer items that had in-game combat bonuses and such.   I’ve always thought the Cash Shop would be convenience and cosmetic items but I hear hints that it might be more.   And that is worrisome.  

    This should be discussed by the community and GuildCast will a very visible forum for the debate for it.    

    • MMO_Doubter

       They will praise it, of course. Gary frikkin’ LOVES RMTs. He has said in the past repeatedly that EVERYTHING should be for sale.

      He also loves GW2 (currently), because he has said virtually nothing about the lack of mounts, even though he loves mounts.

      The others are GW2 fanboys and would never make more than a slight whimper about anything they disliked.

      Don’t expect anything like a balanced discussion on the merits of gold-selling and RMTs in general.

      Objective debate is not the purpose of the show, nor is it what the majority of viewers want.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

        Like you would know anything about having an objective debate. Even when presented with facts, you would deny, ignore, downplay and spew your negative spin no matter what the issue may concern. “Haters gotta hate!” 

        • MMO_Doubter

           Look up “irony”.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Look up “douche bag”.

      • DoctorOverlord

        I think Gary has shown that while he may get really excited for something, if it fails to deliver he will not blindly cling to it. 

        The Final Fantasy Online box that get regularly hurled at Mike is an example.   If Guild Wars 2 doesn’t live up to its promises, it’s likely that box will be getting thrown next.

        This is not a universal trait in the MMO community.  There are still people out there clinging to the notion that horrid games like Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa were good games when history has already written them down as undeniable failures.     

        Gamebreaker seems like they really do judge games, regardless of how enthused they might be at the early potential.  

  • MMO_Doubter

    To the folks who claim that the cash shop is in place to balance the time-poor and the time-wealthy:

    There are other ways of doing it that don’t require gouging the player base. However those methods won’t make ANet rich.

    • snikendelarveføtter

      Based on all your negativity about this game, from an insane amount of comments youve posted, why dont you just NOT play the game. On the other hand, if you are so negative about this game, i guess there cant be any other mmo’s for you either. Tetris?

      • MMO_Doubter

         Given this recent revelation – I won’t be playing Wallet Wars. I would think that would be obvious.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

          The only thing obvious is that you should just go away and spare the people that are actually interested in this game (and others) your constant sh*t talking and negativity. Not that it means much, but 88 comments with only 4 “likes” could be a good indicator of your “obvious” intentions when you post.

          • MMO_Doubter

             This isn’t FaceBook. I could care less how many ‘Like’s I get.

            Kids don’t like to be told there is no Santa Claus. Gamers don’t like to hear about possible flaws in a game they have aligned themselves to.

            Believe it or not, people come here to get information to help them decide if a game is worth buying.

            You are offended by anyone pointing out issues with GW2. Well, frankly, TOUGH.

            There are lots of fansites out there which won’t bother you with the truth.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            That’s the thing though, I’m NOT offended by anyone pointing out possible issues with GW2. I’m offended by your constant stupidity. As I have said before, even when you are presented with facts, you will still deny it and spin it negatively. You are not the gaming community’s “Savior” that you THINK you are. You come off as an arrogant, ignorant, ass hat! You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the ass, basically because your head is too far up it. Perhaps you should create ANOTHER account and re-start championing your convoluted, twisted, and generally delusional ‘truth” to us poor, uniformed gamers. Because you clearly know how to present an objective, unbiased, logical, informative and generally helpful opinion on these subjects. NO, actually you don’t! Just look at your posting history and the comments you’ve made. If you think that you are presenting a “helpful” perspective, you might consider getting some counseling.

          • MMO_Doubter

            If I make factual errors, kindly point them out.

            IF you can do so without resorting to childish name-calling.

            As for multiple accounts, I had a different one on my laptop do to a screw up (and a change in the way GBTV operated their fora).

            I only posted a couple of times in a thread using both accounts (as I was using different computers). That has now been corrected.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            You just can’t admit it can you? You consistently dodge and ignore people anytime they call you on your totally unfounded and useless negativity. Your main purpose in the majority of your posts seems to be to troll (which you constantly try and claim you are not) or make any comments that you know will elicit a negative response. You are basically “baiting” for that response because you seem to get off on it. Sad, really. 

            Oh, and another thing. Learn how to actually read AND comprehend. I didn’t call you any “childish” names. Speaking of childish, perhaps you should consider not acting that way. You know what you are doing, you know why you are doing it and you know that you are getting the response and attention you are looking for. Just come out and admit it, drop the “savior” act. 

          • MMO_Doubter

            I suppose you consider “douche bag” the height of mature discussion?

            As I said, feel free to point out any factual errors I make.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jamiemccutchen1 Jamie McCutchen

            Again, you can’t admit it. And my comment was  “Look up “douche bag”” but I guess you missed that part. And if you want me to point out factual errors, fine. You post your opinions as ‘FACTS”. There ya go. You have never once made ANY factual references, only your opinions. Big difference.

          • MMO_Doubter

             Frankly, you post more like a troll than I do.

          • Old Ben

            So you lose at that game too?

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

             lo
            l

          • Old Ben

            >  I could care less how many ‘Like’s I get.

            I suspect you meant to write “couldn’t”, but the truth somehow managed to surface.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

          I’m not sure how this means GW2 is now “wallet wars”.  There isn’t anything you can buy in the game that will make your character better than mine.  You can never spend a dime in GW2 and be just as good as another player.  They might have a fancy armor skin, or some extra character slots, but actually playing the game, there is no advanatge, no reason anyone HAS to pay a single $1.

          • MMO_Doubter

            I think you have had very little experience in RMT-based MMOs.

            IF they sell xp-buffs, then that is an advantage.

            Wait and see what is in that cash shop. I think it will open your eyes.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            And I think you have very little knowledge about how GW2 is different than all those other game.

            GW2 has a flat levling curve, it will take the same amount of time to go from level 34 to 35 as it does to go from 74 to 75, so an XP boost just doesn’t mean as much here as it does in those games where the last few levels are a long grind.

            Structured PvP also boosts everyone straight to level 80, and unlocks all gear, powers, traits, etc… so there is no possible way to buy your way to success in structure PvP.

            There is also a gear power plateau shortly after level 80, such that no one will have much trouble maxing out their potential stats.

            Given those 3 things, I don’t see anything in the cash shop that will give any actual advantage over me.  So some guy leveled 10% more quickly than me, so what, I’ll still squash him in PvP since skill will be the only determining factor.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            An XP boost is a slight advantage, but GW2 does not have a standard leveling curve… it will take the same amount of time to go from level 34 to 35 that it takes to go from level 74 to 75…

            Also, if I want to face off against that player in structured PvP then we’re both boosted to level 80, and everything (powers, gear, traits, stats) are boosted to the max, so nothing that player can buy in the case shop gives them any advanatge over me.

            With an XP boost they may reach 80- before me, but so what, we’re on the same side… they’ll be that much better in WvWvW, a Dynamic Event, or in a dungeon run we do together.

            Do a quick search for GW2 cash shop items and you will find some pics one of the testers released… nothing in that list will let you beat me in PvP if you buy it and I do not.

          • MMO_Doubter

             I looked at a few of those items, and I agree – no PvP advantage, but then I wasn’t just talking about PvP.

            I saw LOTS of items that give you an in-game advantage: crafting boosts, res tokens, lot of things.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_INQT3ECUZH4FHFNOLFGHOFYNNA K

            But there isn’t really competition in PvE.  We’re all on the same team. 

            Some guys buys a crafting boost and builds a few extra swords of awesomeness, or can build them sooner.  Well cool, then they”ll be cheaper on the Trading Post and more available since more of them exist.

            Some guy in my dungeon run has a res token… yay, he can pop that and be back on his feet to run over and res me.

            I guess if your goal is to be the first to level 80, or the first to craft some particular item or something then these items help someone else “beat” you… but I’m all for my guildies buying these items and helping us grow more quickly. 

            And if I encounter a guild or group that demands I go buy 5 res tokens or something I can either go to the Trading Post and buy some gems with my gold, or I can tell that guild/group to bugger off and find one that doesn’t want/need its members to have such items.

          • MMO_Doubter

             That’s cool.

            I think you will be telling a LOT of groups/guilds to bugger off.

            As for crafting? Some player will want to make the best stuff, and looking at some of those cash shop items, I think it will be difficult or impossible without them.

            What about that Karma boost item? Wasn’t karma supposed to be the RMT-free currency?

          • Old Ben

            > But there isn’t really competition
            > in PvE. We’re all on the same team. 

            No, we’re definitely not on Roger’s team. We’re all playing against him. And we’re all cheaters. All of us.

          • snikendelarveføtter

            This game is not made to be a race to get to some repetative endgame threadmill. I’ll spend money in the cash shop, but not on xp boost. This game is made for you to enjoy it from lvl 1, not for you to rush to “endgame” so you can start playing a “new game” (ref raiding). The only thing you will achieve if you use a constant exp boost, is that you will out level zones and miss content. So if by missing out on content, you mean they are paying to win, then you have a strange way of looking at it. If endgame (in its traditional form) is your thing, then this game is not for you anyway.

  • QSatu

    Gamebreaker. I expect to see some new video about leaked item shop items =P

    • MMO_Doubter

       I think GBTV has a policy against discussing beta leaks.

  • http://twitter.com/JadoCast Jado Cast

    Wow, 357 comments in two days, this has caused a stir.  LOL  This is my thought.  I’m an older player with many personal responsibilities, such as family, work, etc.  In my youth, while going to school/college I had all the time in the world to spend farming gold, raiding, etc for loot/gear/items.  And that’s fine, but now I have very little time, and I just want to jump in a game and play.  If I want an item now I can buy a gem, get the item, and not jeopardize my personal responsibilities.  At the same time, I’m supporting Anet so they can make more content.  What’s nice, is those of you with time and no disposable income, can farm and earn gold to sell me that gem so you can get items you want.  Again, we are supporting Anet in developing more content with these types of transactions.  I think its a Win, Win, Win for everyone.  I don’t see any unfair advantage as long as everyone has the opportunity to earn items, either by spending their time, or money.  

    • dawolv

       actually its a 10 vs 2 – but nether side is willing to admit defeat

    • MMO_Doubter

       That would be a very good point – IF people had to choose one or the other, but ANet is not limiting the cash shop to casual players.

      Those no-lifers are free to buy stuff too, and I am sure many of them will..

      To be honest, I don’t think traditional MMOs are fit for casuals (depending on how casual they are). Why not play a lobby-based FPS or RTS game?

      I hear all the time that cash shops are to balance casuals and no-lifers, but that could be done with a limit on how much progression could be made in a week. Limit it to seven hours of leveling/gearing up per week. I personally would be totally fine with that, but the company doesn’t get money from that system.

      Be honest – that cash shop is there only to make more money. It is not a service to gamers.

      • dawolv

         Sub fees are just about making money too and those aren’t fair to casuals, since you won’t pay 15bucks a moth if you can hardly play for 40h.

        Also, you still don’t understand that this game isn’t about leveling and gearing up the fastest. I’m starting to think that GW2 isn’t for you – no offense.

        I just posted a link to a leaked pic (not here yet coz it needs to be approved).
        It shows that XP Boost, Karma Boost and Magic Find Boost will be for sale
        (1,50€ for 1h of time)
        Every level will take you about 90min in GW2, so it won’t be that hard to get to 80 anyway.

        I think it’s fine. “no-lifers”, as you call them, can buy those if they want – they are not getting MORE powerful as a result, compared to just spending 20h a day ingame. In PvP these won’t be needed, since you are equalized anyway – so whats your problem?
        Let the no-lifers give ANet some money, just like they would if there was a sub fee.

        • MMO_Doubter

           No offense taken. I get far worse here.

          WvWvW is NOT equalize WRT abilities and gear (from what I have been told here). I believe that if I go in at L80 and you are L60, I will have an advantage over you. Not 1-hit kill magnitude, but a real advantage. So leveling speed does matter for WvW.

          PERHAPS GW2 will be different, but EVERY RMT-based MMO I have seen or heard about has sold power eventually (or right at the start). They ALL SAY they won’t but they all go back on that.

          A word to the wise should be sufficient. Just don’t be surprised when/if it happens in GW2.

          • dawolv

             Well – in WvW it will rarely occur that you fight 1on1.
            Our effective level will be 80 but when I’m 60 your gear will be slightly better – but if I manage to dodge your attacks and play smarter than you I could win.
            what you have to note though is that can happen at any time in the game. People will roll alts and then they will be at a disadvantage because their character just started out. If you hate being killed by more powerful characters than just avoid WvW until your 80.
            There will always be someone lower level than you (except everyone chickens out until they get to max.level)

            As to the selling power thing again – as I said: Arenanet hasn’t sold power in GW1 and they have emphasized that they won’t in GW2. For now I have no reason to doubt them – and neither have you. I don’t accuse you for being catious, but don’t call them out for a crime they haven’t yet committed.
            GW1′s cash shop, as they pointed out, was just a tacked on thing so with this fully implemented one I have even more faith in it.

          • MMO_Doubter

             The cash shop apparently has a buff to karma gain. That sure sounds like power to me.

          • dawolv

             Firstly, we don’t even know hoiw much Karma you get from most of the events and how much the really cool items cost

            Secondly, buying power implies that you can buy items that are straight up better than the ones you can aquire through ingame methods, which is not the case – and it won’t be, no matter how often you say it is.

            Yes, with this boost you will earn karma quicker and can buy stuff sooner, but that doesn’t make you more powerful – it makes you faster, and that’s not being more powerful, it’s being faster

          • Bmore77

            what are you going to do with that karma that will give you power over anyone else in pve or pvp? All the level 80 gear is equalised as they said in the video the gain is horizontal. people will be able to obain equally powered gear from pve or crafting or pvp or wvw. You might be able to spend money to get it sooner, I’ll grant you that.

          • greygoo

            a buff is alot diffrent then actually gaining karma dude

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=518607879 Christopher Mitchell

            and if the doubter has payed any attention to the game at all, karma points are used to buy COSMETIC SPARKLIES from karma vendors…. having more karma points gives you NO advantage over another person when fighting except that I may have a noncombact fairy next to me while I pummel you with the same lvl gear as you, cus guess what? It’s a skill based game not a gear based game.

      • greygoo

        Who cares if no lifers buy stuff?  They baught the game and they can support arena net and get gear quciker at the same time.  If you are smart enough to listen to what’s said in the video it makes sence, you have no advantage over anyone anyway.  Same in gw 1 yes you may have a cool shiney sheild and i have a rusty old lump of crap but they have the same stats so you wanna come 1vs1 me with the one you purchased noob?

  • dawolv

    Go to youtube
    put this after the /
    and enjoy.
    He makes the same point everyone here does, so we don’t have to repeat ourselfs anymore.
    your welcome

    /watch?v=QEknPR-l-is&feature=g-u-u&context=G2fd6438FUAAAAAAAAAA

    • Willi Enderle

       ty for this video
      I hope this will get rid of the fear some ppl seem to feel

  • http://twitter.com/Miravlix Steen Eugen Poulsen

    At the moment people think the faction imbalance in SWTOR is based on the fact that the Emp side is cooler and looks better.

    So I find it odd Scott and MikeB completely overlook fashion is a vital part of MMO’s.

    If you can choose to look better than someone and still deal the same DPS, it WILL matter and it will be a advantage to look better than someone else.

    It’s like everyone pulled out there calculator and tried to use that to decide who they have sex with, thats not how it’s done and I’m surprised how many post I read though without anyone here having a clue that fashion beats everything in a social setting.

    • MMO_Doubter

       As Scott said: their job is to “allay fears”.

  • Elusive Fox

    I will say this about micro transactions – its a very thin line and everyone has a different place they consider “crossed” for that line.  so ArenaNet will have to tread very carefully for what it is they are putting up for sale in thier cash shop.

  • http://www.facebook.com/danieljwhatley Daniel Whatley

    Cash shops can be risky business, but it looks like ANet is taking every precaution to avoid the common pitfalls associated with them. I think the most major issue then is that if cash can be paid for gems, and gems can be traded for gold, then every item in the game that can be sold by players can be bought with real-world money. This can really become an issue if certain things aren’t handled carefully, but ANet’s track record of striving to provide the most equal opportunity for everyone indicates to me that whatever they choose to do, it won’t be as simple as shelling out $100 and all-of-a-sudden having early access to the best gear.

    Also, they need to find an optimal disparity between earning something with gameplay and earning it with cash, because though the saying says “time is money,” people are impatient, and so generally time is valued more. This means that a selfish player with more throw-away money could at least be at that advantage over another less fortunate player, regardless of whether or not he has the time to invest into getting the same rewards. Of course, this does not come without another cost: say a player can buy consumable XP buffs, health buffs, attack/defense buffs, etc. Of course he will level up faster and with less effort than someone without those benefits, but despite having an “experience boost,” they will in fact be missing out on the real experience, not gaining valuable improvements to their skill, and ultimately failing to learn how to play the game more effectively. Thus is always the caveat for the easy way out.

    I think ANet can handle it just fine, they always do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439183770 Mark Hunter

    My concern is about self control, I’m cool with costumes, and character slots, bank slots & skill unlocks, that GW1 has, but when you talk about a work around to buy gold for in game use, ~and you always need gold~, you get into issues of the spending money getting out of control. I’ve been there, done that, dropped so much (more then I spent on my 60″ LED) in 6 months, I had to quit the game, that I obviously loved. Sure, my bad, but some people can’t resist temptation, it started out as a just $20 thing, and then way more. I don’t love gold spammers, and don’t trust them, lack of trust kept me safely away, and I sure don’t keep Anet from making money, but If it ends up being an issue of me spending cash to get in game gold to buy items from players or unlock areas or buffs, I’ll have to remove myself from temptation again, from a game that I’ve been looking forward to for years. Yes, they’ll have my money already, but it would erode the game from the inside. I’ve seen it before, I just hope they know what they’re doing.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tien-Nguyen/667928643 Tien Nguyen

    What if the gold farmers sell golds for less than ArenaNet?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IL7J7A3V2ZNIXCQ7LSOJGTH5RY Rizen

    boo, play to win sucks.  it doesnt even have to be play to win, if I have to grind all month for the same amount of gold someone can purchase for 15 bucks, then its the same thing.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IL7J7A3V2ZNIXCQ7LSOJGTH5RY Rizen

    Saving time by not grinding for gold or having to spend that time crafting is an advantage.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Alex-Sanchez/100003130430158 Alex Sanchez

    Uber sword of Pwningyourface? The next legendary drop to be patched into Guild Wars 2!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZI3JIIG3XQ6NCOY3IDPR4LJLT4 ikihi

    this is funny. its like a mini stock market. I actually wish they would expand the gold/gem trading thing into an actual in game stock market with various goods to buy/sell.