Written by: (@winterinformal) | August 6, 2012 1:08 pm

131 Comments

ArenaNet story gurus Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee recently hit the airwaves with a livestream, where they discussed their approaches to story and lore in Guild Wars 2.

In many ways, they try to approach the story of Guild Wars 2 from unusual perspectives, noting how it differs from “traditional fantasy.” In most fantasy worlds, the forest-dwelling elf-like race is old, wise, and in decline; GW2‘s sylvari are the exact opposite of those conventions in every way.

Similarly, human races are typically dominant, at or near the crest of their power, such as in The Lord of the Rings. In GW2, humans may have already reached their peak and are more of a fringe race than what is usually seen.

In general, Grubb and Soesbee said that fantasy is perceived as a “mirror” to the past, which can be altered slightly to apply different traits to different factions or races, such as the charr’s resemblance to the Roman Empire or the notion that, if you had an airplane in GW2, you might open up the engine compartment and see that it’s powered by magical hamsters — which is something I think the asura should totally build.

Said Soesbee:

“The best stories have enough reflection that you feel comfortable identifying, but are different enough to make you feel uncomfortable.”

The pair also took a handful of viewer questions, the most interesting one of which concerned Tyria’s #1 baddie, Zhaitan himself. Supposedly, if you defeat Zhaitan, he won’t be there — for you, not for other players — the next time you go to his area. Does that rule out the battle with Zhaitan being an instance or a dynamic event and confine it to a story mission? We’ll just have to wait and see…

You can catch the whole talk, (mostly) free of technical difficulties, here.

Guild Wars 2's Lore Gurus Talk Storytelling And Elder Dragons

  • http://twitter.com/Dragonours Mathieu Mauve

    I think the Zhaitan’s end thing can easily be tackled with a Story mode dungeon run and then you come back in Exploration mode and there’s no more Zhaitan. 
    But you can still re-run the Story mode with other players.

  • itsJUSTINduh

    You can repeat the fight with Zhaitan because he is in the story mode of the very last dungeon at the end of orr and you can repeat the story modes of dungeons.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/KHPZTPGVBYFPZSC2QLRVIYVE6M Tom

      After you finish the story modes of dungeons you can only do Exploration mode after you finish the story one. I’m going to guess the 
      Exploration mode will have a different boss then the story mod. But if join other player’s story mode then..you could fight him more then once…=)

      • Jay

         You can’t repeat story mode with the same group? Wow, that’s hardcore… I like it. :)

        Learn something new everyday…

      • http://twitter.com/gmartinqc Gabriel Martin

         You can run the story mode as much as you want, but its less rewarding since you don’t get the quest reward after the 1st time (like the set helm in Ascalonian Catacombs).

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/7MPGC5FCQJZGFKICKCMALR3AYY Eric

    works for GW2. The lack of an end-game  gear treadmill means there’s no reason to kill be big meanie at the end of a game every week for months on end. Other than, you know, actually wanting to. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/didrik.puschel Didrik Püschel

    I think it makes sense. I was definitely expecting this since we already knew Arah is the final dungeon where Zhaitan resides. You probably go in there and kill him in story mode, then later you can do the repeatable explorable mode which, as in the other dungeons, houses something else. In this case I guess you could probably join a friend to fight Zhaitan again if he/she hasn’t done it yet.

    • http://twitter.com/H3L1ON Samir

      if my assumtions are right based on what they said and the GW lore i guess,we will fight zhaitan in eather a DE or in the last dungeon(DG) but when we beat him he will die and the game changes so that the next time we do the same DG or DE we dont 
      fight Zhaitan anymore but rather one of Glints & Zhaitans Children.

      Ofc if you start a new char or you are a new player you can exp it again until you beat him, ofc these are theory’s of mine and are pure speculation but i think thats what the where hinting at in the last 10 – 5 min of the video.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/OABTMHSNAQ7DNEJO6T5E4VSTOI Mr.Mustacho

         zaitan is in Arah the city of the gods if all they could come up with is another dragon to fight i would be dissapointed

        (remember one guy going down there caused the cataclysm)

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/MS5DLMEKILDNJNAL2W7KVJ33YA Fiona Furlong

          Considering how the statement involves “Zhaitan not being there any more” I doubt he is in the last dungeon, as that is repeatable content, and it seems odd that a dungeon boss, especially the final boss, wouldn’t be there after one full run

          • http://twitter.com/H3L1ON Samir

            But you forget that there are  modes: Story and Explorable mode 
            when you only have to do story mode once after that you have to manualy click story mode if you want to repeat story mode otherwise you would go automaticly to explorable mode 

            And its this mode where the game changes and probbably Zhaitan woudent be there anymore since you beat him in story mode but hey you might be able to kill his offsprings or parts of his body since he is a dragon composed out of other dead dragons  

  • http://www.facebook.com/imranibnramdhan Sesimie StreetFighter

    Gw2 proving that subtle changes to archetypes and MMO cliché’s can invigorate a stale genre!! Bring it on!!

    • Old Ben

      Actually, it’s mainly the big changes to game world design and combat mechanics, but the subtle ones are nice too.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      You said Archetype,  drink!

  • TheHolgar

    Video forbidden, this video is private? Only me that cant see it?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Willi-Enderle/1668850948 Willi Enderle

       same here

    • http://twitter.com/SilverTaurusPL SilverTaurus

      same here

    • sukhdeep bhatti

      Clear your browser cache

  • http://www.kaiketsu.enjin.com/ Corey “Crimzen”

    I think it’s going to be interesting to see, because If I recall correctly you end up fighting Zhaitan in the last dungeon on story mode. So if you see him in your personal story as well, then that would probably indicate that you may or may not “finish him off” so to speak or kill him right away maybe. The wording they used was hard to really fit into any type of context because separating whether or not they were referring to certain things from a lore stand point or a game mechanics stand point seemed a bit tricky at times with them both talking over each other >.< lol. I admire both of there work though and they are both very talented so I'm excited to see how this plays out from a game mechanics standpoint as well as a story standpoint.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/OABTMHSNAQ7DNEJO6T5E4VSTOI Mr.Mustacho

       i think the last dungeon’s story mode is also the last story mission (or one of the last maybe you have some party after)

      having brought back destiny’s edge and geared up to kick ass

  • Violent_Waves

    cant see video

    • sukhdeep bhatti

      clear your browser cache

      • Old Ben

        He’s blind, you insensitive clod!

        • sukhdeep bhatti

          T_T

  • Jay

    From an immersion stand point, I think having Zhaitan as the major boss only in the story is a plus. Killing the Lich King week after week takes away from his feeling of threat in the world. I notice when you down elite bosses in GW2, they usually fall back into the water or swamp or wherever they came from. So basically they’re downed, but not defeated… You won the battle, but there’s still an ongoing war.

    It really shows how much ArenaNet wants to change things up. Not the same ol’ treadmill…

  • Old Ben

    “Grubb & Soesbee”, by the way, would be a great name for a luxury brand.

    • RockerDC3

      What’s the difference?

      • Old Ben

        Modern Starsky & Hutch gold watches are still quite good…?

  • Old Ben

    Engines powered by hamsters? Seems inefficient. Evidence suggests that you can get endless power by putting a WoW player on a treadmill.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/OABTMHSNAQ7DNEJO6T5E4VSTOI Mr.Mustacho

    i think the zaitan fight is like a story mission dungeon you can repeat it but you have to indicate you want to replay

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/WUO7JRPFS2K52LUXIY2LLJ4TSU Sean

    I guess having Zhaiten as a personal story boss makes him more important really. So he’s not just some pathetic baddy that keeps coming back no matter how many times players send him packing.

    Dynamic events do seem like they trivialize big baddies, even if they are epic.

    So I think it would be a good thing, besides you’ll be able to fight Zhaiten with a friend afterwards anyway if you jumped into their personal story.

  • Jado Cast

    I tried to watch this but with the echo’s at the beginning, and then both of them talking over each other, and the rude chat room, it was about ten minutes before I closed the window and watched Wooden Potatoes daily update.  It’s funny, I rather listen to a person talking about the lore than listen to the two responsible for inventing the lore.  :)

  • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

    Tried watching it live, it was an embarrassment. The audio problems at the beginning was horrible. They cut the video at the end.  The live chat was totally out of control, rude and crude.  Didn’t seem to have any moderators or controls.

    It sounded like they were still designing the game, the game starts in three weeks!  Are they still trying to figure out of the boss is dead or alive if you repeat the dungeon. I am confused by the personal story. Orr is a big fight without Hearts and includes webbed Dynamic Events, but you still have personal story in Orr. Am I missing something?  Is GW2 ready for launch?  . 

    • Jay

      That’s what you got from it? I got a few things… 1. I love Ree Soesbee (Sorry, Elisabeth… Ree has you beat by a mile ;)

      2. These guys take their lore seriously. You can tell by how they both had their own stances on various aspects of the races, they must’ve had some long conversations regarding these things.

      3. What other MMO company does stuff like this, really? They let us inside their head for a moment, for a short glimpse into their creative process. This wasn’t some CG filled marketing ploy, this was a bonus for the fans.

      Personal story areas are instanced, so they can do anything with having an affect on the open world. After playing GW2 in various betas… I have no doubt it’s ready for launch.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        The lore was great, very fun.  The video/audio production was terrible and the live chat was disgusting, totally out of control.   

        • Jay

          Lol yeah, they had some technical difficulties, but hey, they were “doing it live!”… They figured out the echo soon enough.

          About the live chat… Welcome to the internet, man.

          Ree made up for everything. <3

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Yeah, its the Internet, no surprise.  That’s why your moderators put and end to that type of behavior right away.   You slow the chat down, you delete the offensive content and kick the offensive  chatters.   You need a strong “pimp” hand when you moderate a chat room. 

        • koujow

          They are writers, not tv crews. They wanted to talk some about the lore of the game, not go in depth about gameplay or put on a show. It took them like 15 minutes to fix it, but after that, it was an interesting listen. 

          You are right about the chat though. 

          • Old Ben

            > They are writers, not tv crews.

            They’re (supposedly) being filmed by a TV crew, though. Or, if they’re not, maybe they should be. Arena Net has some 250 employees, IIRC. They could afford at least one guy with a clue about cinematography and video streaming.

            Every video they release (especially this close to the game launch) is effectively a marketing tool, and the better everything looks / sounds, the more clients they’ll attract.

            Both Ree and Jeff have great looks (think elven ranger and scholarly archmage), and with a good intro, a bit of cosplay, a decent background and better lighting, this kind of video could go viral. I’m not talking about acting, just making it visually more appealing (and aurally less echo-y).

            Or maybe I just want to see her in leather armor…

          • http://twitter.com/cipero Matt Cipriano

            Well, to be fair they could have taped and released a video instead of doing a live stream. Though somebody there should have been able to get the microphone levels right. 

            I think it’s nice that they are doing things live. However I do agree they could’ve used a handful more moderators. Some people in that chatroom were complete tools.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            If you have two people in a room, you really need a sound person.  MikeB would never let that crap happen. 

            Love the lore people, talking about lore. 
            Mentioning anything about gameplay was a mistake. 

    • Old Ben

      > I am confused by the personal story.

      I think so is everyone above seven years old who actually tries to follow the plot.

      • http://www.facebook.com/kevin.cox.5817 Kevin Cox

        What don’t you get?

        • Old Ben

          It’s no so much what I don’t get, it’s what I do. There are enough plot holes and deus ex machina “solutions” just in the first two chapters to make at least three James Cameron movies.

          Luckily, I don’t play MMOs for the single-player story.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            So far, Iv’e done the first few chapters of Asura (loved the whimsy) and Charr (hated the story).   So, both personal stories go to level 80 and end up at the gates in Orr.   Hope the Asura get there by airplane with the magical hamster engine. 

        • Jay

           Lawl.

    • http://www.facebook.com/kevin.cox.5817 Kevin Cox

      yes because a live stream with minor audio issues, a rude chatroom and your current inability to listen is indicative of a title that’s not ready to launch. 

      *facepalm*

      If you listened you would have heard them say that once you defeat Zhaitan, the world around you is different from a player who hasn’t defeated Zhaitan. It will change for YOU. This could mean a couple of different things. Either the world will react to your having defeated him (similar to the AIs reactions to your personal story decisions) or you simply won’t find him there anymore BUT will be presented with an option to repeat the fight. That’s my guess. 
      Orr will have personal story yes because personal story is made up of instanced events which means they can and will be separate from the DE’s going on in real time. 

      Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean the game isn’t ready to launch. It’s definitely ready.  

      • Old Ben

        > It’s definitely ready.  

        Arena Net seems to disagree, probably with good reason. 

        Unless you have access to some sort of insider information, the last version of the game you played was the one in the post-BWE3 stress test, and there were several things missing or not work correctly, many of which were even listed in an official forum post.

        Fortunately, it doesn’t have to be ready, because the release date is still three weeks away.

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          The release date is three weeks away.   At three weeks out you start re-prioritizing your content delivery.  You start falling into the trap of saying, well there won’t be any level 80s at launch, so lets push it down on the priority list.  You run out of time and start pushing priorities down the list.

          While Orr sounds exciting (got to get my Engineer to 80), its sound really  complex with webbed Dynamic Events, personal story and a final dungeon. That’s alot of stuff. (technical term) 

          • Old Ben

            > At three weeks out you start
            > re-prioritizing your content delivery. 

            Huh? Content delivery?

            >  there won’t be any level 80s at launch

            I’m pretty sure there will be. Pre-purchasers will have 72 hours to level before launch, and I’m sure a lot of people are planning to play non-stop or make a team of 2 or 3 people and take turns leveling the same character.

            > You run out of time

            I’m pretty sure you can’t. The universe keeps making more. 

            The game doesn’t need to be in some sort of “final” state for launch. It just needs to be playable, with all the main features, and no horrible bugs. There were still several problems in BWE3 but nothing that looked unfixable (from a technical point of view, at least) in 3 weeks. 

            Stuff will keep being tweaked after launch, same as any other MMO. Nobody expects things like WvW to be perfectly balanced without a couple of months’ worth of gameplay statistics.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if they had one more “stress test” one or two weeks before launch, though. 

            > webbed Dynamic Events, personal story and
            > a final dungeon. That’s alot of stuff. (technical term) 

            And that’s a good thing (technical term).

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Time is the continuing progression of events occurring in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.
            Sorry, Arenanet can’t make more time between now and the 25th. 

            If the fast levelers start complaining about buggy content, you know Arenanet wishes for more time.  Haven’t you read the chat room comments, the GW2 fans are convinced the game will be perfect at launch. 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Well what did you expect from fanatics? ;)
            Anyone who has spent a bit of time browsing the GW1 wiki knows ‘perfect’ is not going to happen. All software will have bugs but not all bugs are game breakers.

          • Jay

             No, not GW2 “fans”… Irrational people who happen to like GW2 think the game will be perfect.

            If that was true, then WOW fans think WOW is perfect too. :)

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            I doubt you would need multiple people take turns to get to 80 in 72 hours. I got around 7 less just from the 4 hours in the stress test and that wasn’t really trying since I knew it was all for nothing. Having a group to level with would certainly make the leveling faster. Unless it’s a giant blob of people which would be counterproductive.

          • Old Ben

            Wait, are you saying you got to level 73 in 4 hours…?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Nope, 8 in 4 hours. Since the levels are all supposed to take approximately the same amount of time, that is around 40 hours to get to 80.

            Plenty of time to sleep without having people take turns leveling the same character. :)

          • Old Ben

            > Since the levels are all supposed to take
            > approximately the same amount of time

            According to Arena Net (and to the way the game worked in the BWEs), the leveling curve flattens out after the start, but it’s not a horizontal line. Leveling from 1 to 10 takes a lot less than leveling from 41 to 50 (but 41 to 50 is very close to 71 to 80).

            > Plenty of time to sleep without having people
            > take turns leveling the same character. 

            Oh, but you know some people will. And they’ll get there before you. And that cannot be allowed to happen!

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Meh! Luckily I am not a ‘FIRST!!!!!” obsessed person. :)

          • http://www.facebook.com/KyleDAJuza Kyle Juza

            This game is not based on getting a character to 80 then the “real” game begins. GW2 is about playing a game and enjoying it from lvl 1. There is so much more to do in the game than just grind to 80 to face the “super-bad boss guy of the game”  yes, Orr and Zhaitan sound amazing and I really hope they don’t skimp out on content for lvl 80′s, but that shouldn’t be their main focus and it doesn’t mean the game is not ready for launch.

        • Jay

          Being “ready” doesn’t mean flawless and 100% complete, it simply means that it is capable of performing up to the standards of who qualifies it as “ready”.

          You can be “ready” to go out, and finish buttoning your shirt or tying your tie on the way to your destination.

          I & ArenaNet both think GW2 is ready, until they tell me otherwise. :)

          • Old Ben

            They _are_ telling you otherwise. Try to log in and play…

          • Jay

            Not quite… There’s a difference between “ready” and released. By your logic, the game isn’t “ready” until the moment they “hit the switch” and the servers go live (or even after).

            Even after the game goes live, and we can log in, the game still isn’t 100% over and done; since it’s an MMO, and updates will be ongoing. Otherwise, there would be no reason for a “live team” other than customer support.

            I still say the game is “ready”, Ben! ;P

          • Old Ben

            You can say whatever you want, it’s a free world.

            The fact remains that Arena Net hasn’t released it yet and, in the last opportunity you had to play it, several important features were still bugged or missing (as players could see and the developers acknowledged). 

            As such, you opinion isn’t just unfounded (because you haven’t seen those things working), it’s also irrelevant (because Arena Net controls the game, and they’ve decided that it won’t be released before the 25th / 28th). 

            You might be “ready” to play the game, but that doesn’t mean the people making the game think it’s ready to be released. And that’s what counts.

          • Jay

             Depends on your definition of “free”…

            I think that’s the only thing we disagree on; semantics. The definition of the word “ready” and the context in which it’s used. None of us are saying the game is perfect or close to it. All that’s being said by myself and ArenaNet is that the game is ready for public consumption.

            TBH I don’t know if I’m “ready” to play the game… I see many hours of investment ahead.

          • Old Ben

            > All that’s being said by myself (though not
            > by Arena Net) is that the game is ready 

            There, fixed that for you.

          • Jay

             Nope, ArenaNet said it, you just don’t agree with it apparently. :3

            That’s okay though, maybe it’s not ready enough for you.

          • Old Ben

            >  ArenaNet said it

            Got a link to that? 

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            All I can say is, I hope the large scale player testing of Orr went well.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

         Jeff Grubb said “We are working on getting his body in there.”   Sounds like they have a concept for replay, but they are still working on it. 
        That’s why lore writers should never talk about instance design. 

        I think the professions are ready (my favorite part of the game).  I think the races are ready.  

        You should never talk about still working on major phasing aspect three weeks before the game launch. 

        • Jay

          When Jeff said, “we’re working on his body being there” (jokingly), I’m pretty sure he meant that they are working on having his corpse there after you defeat him. Based on the context it was used… Ree was talking about after we defeat Zhaitan.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Lore is serious business!  Okay, the airplanes with magic hamster was probably a joke.  

            Didn’t sound like he was joking.  Sounded like he was adding on to a question Ree was answering.   

    • ArsenicSundae

       GW2 is ready for launch.

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        I really hope so.  Orr sounds really complex and fun.  But, how much large scale player test has it undergone. 

  • Ravenstorm

    Magical Hamster Airplanes ! ! !  LOLOLOLOL !!!!

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      I don’t really know who Zaithan is, who is Kegbowl?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

         The PvP thing in Hoelbrak, there is an article/video of it here by Richie.

        • Old Ben

          That would be Keg Brawl. Although Keg Bowl wouldn’t be a bad name for the championship final. :-P

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Brings a whole new meaning to the term “Beer League”

  • koujow

    When I first heard them say the part about Zhaitan, I had the same response that just about everyone else did. I was really surprised that you would fight him (it?) once and thats all. Other MMOs have taught us that you will fight the big bad at least a thousand times before the next expansion. 

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      So if you want to fight him twice, you have to bring someone who hasn’t killed the boss.  Very confusing.    If the death of the boss is persistent, why are all the minions still around.  

      • Old Ben

        > So if you want to fight him twice, you have to bring someone
        > who hasn’t killed the boss. Very confusing. 

        You managed to describe it in one sentence. I guess it wasn’t all that confusing, eh?

        And isn’t that exactly how WoW works? Once you’ve done a certain quest, you can’t do it again, and any bosses summoned as part of that quest can only be fought again if you’re with someone else who hasn’t done it.

        >  If the death of the boss is persistent, why are all the minions still around.  

        If Christ died, why are there still Christians?

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          So, if I show up with a group that has killed the final boss, the boss will be dead. Lore people, don’t talk about instance design. 

          For the last point, let’s go with the WoW Lich King (spoilers), If one dies, another must take his place.  The new Lich King can keep the forsaken under control. 

          If Zhaitan dies and stays dead,  shouldn’t his minions attempt to destroy the world or retreat to the deep dark hidden spaces. 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Unless one of the remaining dragons take control of Zhaitan’s army.

            The “new one raises to take it’s place” thing could also happen, a similar thing happens at the end of of Nightfall.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            That would be the classic solution to solve the lore dilemma.  Wonder if you will see that in game?

          • Old Ben

            It’s not so much a lore dilemma; it’s a storytelling dilemma (trying to tack a single-player story onto a multi-player world). 

            And there’s no need to have another one take his place. If you kill the pope, the bishops will still be able to run things (and will run them pretty much the same way).

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            No, the video clearly indicated there was not a hierarchical order of dragons.

            The video even indicated each dragon had a preferred type of minion.  I could image the dragons saying “I don’t want the zombies, you take the zombies.”

          • Old Ben

            > the video clearly indicated
            > there was not a hierarchical
            > order of dragons.

            Neither did I.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Since Zhaitan is supposed to be made up of the bodies of other dragons they could easily do the “that wasn’t my real body” thing. :)

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/Z36GPOU3Q2QIQYBIDVNQAVGNGE Raul

            “death was merely a setback!”

          • Jay

             Nice :)

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Perfect, another classic trope in fantasy. Nothing new here.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            That seems like it would fit fairly well with Zhaitan’s powers.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Perfect, another classic trope in fantasy. Nothing new here. 

          • Old Ben

            > So, if I show up with a group that has killed
            > the final boss, the boss will be dead.

            If the boss fight is part of your personal story, then once you’ve done that stage of the personal story it will be done. You also cannot repeat the tutorial boss fight; you can go there again but the boss won’t show up for you _unless_ you’ve joined someone else’s party, and are doing the fight as part of his or her personal story.

            Doesn’t seem particularly complicated.

            Inconsistent with the open world? Yes, but so is everything else in the personal story, which is why it takes place in instanced zones.

            > If Zhaitan dies and stays dead, shouldn’t his minions
            > attempt to destroy the world

            Destroy the world? Where would they live after that, then? 

            > or retreat to the deep dark hidden spaces. 

            What for? What would that achieve?

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            No, Grubb clearly said this was a repeatable event.  So, it’s either a Dynamic Event, World Boss or Dungeon. 

            Wouldn’t it be kind of silly if you killed Zhaitan as part of your personal story and then went back in as part of a dungeon group.  Would Zhaitan really only show up if you  had not competed your personal story. 

            Or if you kill Zhaitan as part of your story Dungeon and then you finish your personal story with,”Yup, Zhaitan is still dead.”

          • Old Ben

            Barradin’s Vaults are repeatable but the end is different depending on whether you’re there as part of the Charr story or not. Go back “normally”, no boss. Go back as part of someone’s personal story, and the boss is there. There’s no reason why Zhaitan can’t work exactly the same way.  

            The issue is whether or not the impact of that inconsistency won’t confuse players and make the story feel fake. But the story feels fake enough as it is, so meh… anyone who manages to swallow those first two chapters will swallow anything.

        • Jay

           This reply was full of win.

  • Bobby K

    I don’t think you got it right guys.They did say in a previous nterview that Zhaitan is a dungeon boss.So my guess is you will be able to see him while you are in orr in the background,but once you defeat him he will disapear.Thats it you’ll still be able to fight him again but,but you wont see him outside of the dungeon anymore.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      That’s my point.   As much as I love lore people, they should never talk about instance or world design.  It just leads to confusion. 

    • Jay

      How would they make him appear for people who haven’t fought him, and not show up for  the guy standing next to them who has defeated him already?.. ArenaNet has some nice technology, but I don’t think they’ll be able to make your idea happen.

      He may be in story mode, but I don’t think you’ll be able to see him flying around Orr.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

        Having him show up for some people and not others would be fairly easy as long as nobody interacts with it. The bigger problem there is that it can be very confusing for people playing on the map.

        • Jay

           If Zhaitan is as big as they say he is, I don’t think it’s quite that simple. If it’s that easy, I would like to see destroyed buildings after certain events, since it wouldn’t matter to someone playing right next to me.

          • Old Ben

            You do see destroyed building after several events. 

          • Jay

             Everyone in the area sees that though. Which I do like, but having 2 out of 3 people seeing something different but still being in the same group is a bit of a reach when talking buildings and giant dragons. Not impossible, but pretty much anything is possible given the right circumstances.

          • Old Ben

            It might be “a reach” in terms of world consistency, but from a technical point of view it’s trivial to do. 

          • Jay

            Keep in mind Orr may have hundreds of players in the area, and needs to run on a wide variety of machines. It’s level 80 so a lot of people will end up there, and it supposedly has huge dynamic webs… Sure, anything is possible, but not everything is practical. Hey, I hope they end up doing it.

            Having Shatterer fly around is one thing, but having Zhaitan is another… Technically, I don’t think it’s as trivial as you make it seem.

          • Old Ben

            You can  think whatever you want, it’s a free world.

            As you can see from the resource nodes (and as anyone with any experience coding games can tell you), it’s trivial to make objects appear on some clients but not others (or replace them with a different object, or the same object with a different animation, etc.).

            In fact, GW2 does that in several events (to avoid having players compete for objectives). You just don’t notice it because you’re not watching the game on two clients at the same time.

            Technically, it’s trivial to serve completely different worlds to different players.
            The implications those differences might have on the game’s narrative and on player interaction are a separate issue.

          • Jay

            I think you’re trivializing it… I won’t tell you what my major was in college.

            It’s all relative anyway. What I find easy, some may find difficult. In the end, like I said, if they do it, kool; if not, I can understand why.

          • Old Ben

            You can think whatever you want. It’s a free world.

            I won’t tell you what industry I worked on for seven years…

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            It just occurred to me that there is a much simpler solution. They can just use the overflow system. You default to the appropriate instance depending whether or not you have killed him. The instances would have to be labeled differently but that should be trivial.

          • Jay

             I agree that would be simpler, although I doubt ArenaNet would want to segregate its players based on that condition. Hey, if they can pull off the giant dragon flying for some and not for others… More power to em’ :)

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            I don’t really see much different between that and regular overflow. Going with the overflow system also allows for much more flexibility like a different set of DEs.

          • Jay

             I agree, it would be kool for a different set of DEs, but that server would be very low population until enough people hit 80 and defeat Zhaitan. Interesting idea though.

      • Old Ben

        > How would they make him appear for people who haven’t fought him,
        > and not show up for the guy standing next to them who has defeated
        > him already?

        if (!hasThisPlayerKilledHim())
        {
          renderDragonFlyingAcrossTheSky();
        }

        That’s about the amount of “technology” required…

        • Jay

           In a persistent world, it’s not that simple… There’s a reason why WOW has phasing.

          • Old Ben

            It is that simple. 

            It’s exactly the same as rendering resource nodes. If you harvest some plant, the plant is no longer rendered by your client, but other players can still see it. Absolutely trivial to do with any game engine.

            The only (potentially) complication is what happens when someone else interacts with it. In GW2 you just see the other player harvesting what appears to be an “empty” plant.

            In the case of a dragon that simply flies across the sky (or a dead body lying on some cliff) interaction isn’t even an issue.

            The idea of having players kill the “big boss” as part of their personal story seems incredibly stupid from a narrative point of view, but from a technical point of view it’s extremely easy to implement.

          • Jay

             If they do it, it would be kool. I guess if any MMO is gonna have it, GW2 will.

          • Old Ben

            If any MMO is going to have what? Things that render differently on different clients? Every MMO has that.

            If anything, the good thing about GW2 is that they _avoid_ that as much as possible.

            But they still fall into the “separate realities” trap when it comes to the personal story. 

          • Jay

            Giant bosses that you only see flying around based on your stage in a story… Every MMO has that?

            Really hate the personal stories, eh? I think 1 on 1 vs Zhaitan would be a bit ridiculous, but playing a part in the grand scheme of things should be kool.

            Maybe not novel worthy, but a nice part of the game outside its bread n butter.

          • Old Ben

            Bosses, NPCs, buildings, objects, spell effects, terrain, etc.. Nearly every MMO is full of things that render differently on different clients.

            In most cases it’s the result of the writers’ inability to take the game’s multi-player nature into consideration, leading to an inconsistent world.

            In other cases (like GW2′s resource nodes) it’s just a game design decision leading to some slightly silly situations (ex., a player hacking at a tree that you can’t see because you’ve already cut it down).

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

            Have you noticed the bug with that making things even sillier? Whenever I see someone else chopping a tree it’s usually with a pickaxe or a sickle rather than with the axe.

          • Old Ben

            They could make it funnier (and make griefers happy) by playing the “/cry” animation for other players. You’d see yourself chopping down the tree, but anyone who had already harvested that tree would just see you looking at the stump and crying.

          • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

            Yes, several times.

  • http://twitter.com/Osuryn Osuryn

    I think killing zaithen is like the storymode of that dungeon, and than u can’t take that path again in that dungeon, but you always have the other paths to do, and i think u will be able to kill zaithen again, if u complete the storymode of the dungeon with a friend of yours. going further on the system they have in place for ascalonian catacombs

  • Victoria collon

    I love the way they do it with zhaitan I’ve always wished that my actions have an impact on the world and this is the ultimate way of having it

    • Old Ben

      Yes, and knowing that every other player in your server was also “the one” to kill Zhaitan only adds to that sense of heroism and impact on a shared world, eh?

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Guess you could implement some server requirement to unlock the boss. That would give you that cooperative impact on a shared world. 

        • Old Ben

          It would still be inconsistent if some people killed the boss while others saw him alive.

          It’s the kind of stuff that always happens when games try to tack a single-player story on top of a multi-player world.

          MMOs need writers with a different mentality. The people writing the actual events and NPC conversations in GW2 seem to “get it”, but the ones writing the personal stories don’t.

  • http://www.facebook.com/patrikules.vunderbar Patrikules Vunderbar

    The only thing that seems weird about this to me is future expansions.  Are they going to make a new big baddie that you kill solo? Its gonna be interesting to see how they expand on the game after zhaitan is dead.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/ITHF7XKYGVXFAPCDMDJTKHLBBU Lian Wan

      Zhaitan is just one of several dragons. There is still Primordus underground, Kralkatorik in the desert (blocking the way to Elona), Jormag (the one trying to wipe out the Norn), “bubbles”(the unnamed underwater dragon blocking the way to Cantha). There is also a large part of the world that has never been seen before.

      They could also completely skip the dragons for at least 2 expansions. The Guild Wars Beyond storylines are supposed to lead to things in GW2 and the latest one, Winds of Change takes place in Cantha.

      Then there is the stuff in Elona with Palawa Joko, he was released in GW1 by the player and now he has pretty much wrecked Elona.

  • Phelar Anstikar

    In Spell Jammer the gnomish jammers were powered by giant space hamsters.

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