Blizzard Community Manager Zarhym counters assertions about LFR

Written by: (@oliviadgrace) | November 1, 2012 3:25 pm

37 Comments

Faced with complaints about players feeling they “have to” run LFR in order to raid normal modes, Community Manager Zarhym has posted a rather firm response on the US forums.

He deals with some issues that have come up a lot in Mists of Pandaria, including whether certain things like LFR and Daily Quests are mandatory or not. He’s clearing up a few key points here, and it makes interesting and comforting reading. It’s notable that the Raid Finder, or LFR, was always intended from its inception not to be a rung on the gearing ladder, but to be a way to see content. It was aimed at the players who didn’t have the option, time, or schedule to raid with a guild, and with Mists of Pandaria, as Zarhym points out, they’re taking this far more seriously.

The full post is below, but the key points are as follows:

  • You’re not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep running LFR each week for gear if you want to be successful in the higher difficulties.
  • With stat inflation, the difference between these (LFR and Heroic Dungeon) item levels is almost negligible, unless you’re comparing full sets.
  • In the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty — and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.
  • Organized raiders who make progress each week on normal difficulty shouldn’t hit any pass/fail gear checks and lose because they’re not running LFR every week.

The first one is the most interesting. Do players feel forced to run LFR? Do players feel forced to do Dailies? And is this a mentality that ought to be pushed back against? Has the game changed so much that players can do what they want? Is Zarhym right that players shouldn’t complain and that they’re under no obligation?

Check out Zarhym’s full post below.

But let’s discuss the issue you raise: “I run raid content in an organized group. I don’t want to do LFR on top of my normal raiding, but I feel like I have to if I want to gear up as fast as possible.”

The statement might be true for some, but I have a lot of follow-ups.

- Are you in a guild that has success with Heroic raid progression? This one’s pretty important, as any guild that’s good enough to be farming, or at least killing several bosses in, Heroic Mogu’shan Vaults and Heart of Fear by the time Terrace of Endless Spring opens via LFR, will not likely need a single piece of gear from LFR. Terrace of Endless Spring LFR items won’t be as good as your Heroic raid gear.

- Is your guild demanding that you run LFR every week for the chance at some upgrades you haven’t made via normal difficulty yet? In your post you say we’re forcing you into LFR, but that’s not true. I won’t argue semantics, but if you’re min/maxing your character for every competitive edge possible, that’s a playstyle choice.

- How badly are you really hurting your raid by not running LFR? Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is “make or break” for the entire raid? With stat inflation, the difference between these item levels is almost negligible, unless you’re comparing full sets. But in the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty — and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.

Certainly there’s a psychology to hunting down every advantage you can, and the endgame is largely about that. But there are a lot of nuances in the raid progression system to ensure that:

A) Raid Finder has a healthy pool of players from which to choose
B) Organized raiders who regularly tackle Heroic difficulty will have virtually no need to run Raid Finder much at all this expansion (since a new tier’s LFR ilvl won’t outdo the previous tier’s Heroic ilvl)
C) Organized raiders who make progress each week on normal difficulty shouldn’t hit any pass/fail gear checks and lose because they’re not running LFR every week.
D) You’re not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep running LFR each week for gear if you want to be successful in the higher difficulties.

I asked a lot of questions because you’re demanding a very dramatic change to the game, but you’ve shared almost no details regarding why this change is completely necessary for everyone, and you’re posting on an account that gives me absolutely no insight into your level-90 progression.

Blizzard Community Manager Zarhym counters assertions about LFR

  • http://twitter.com/Luke_Malcolm Luke Malcolm

    #TeamZarhym

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21003660 Keith William Gretton

    I haven’t done any 5s or LFR before jumping into Normal raids. I hate 5s so I geared up through doing all the quests, spending JP carried over from Cata and buying crafted stuff on the AH.

    • http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

      So basicly – you are letting other raid members carry you ….  We called those ppl leeches back in Vanilla

  • http://twitter.com/cosmic_kirby CosmicKirby

    When the expansion first dropped and we’re left with deciding to run normals with dungeon gear or LFR gear, then for a strong progression based guild (of which there are very, very few mind you).  You don’t need it for just the normal runs, but every piece of gear will matter once your blow through normal, if LFR is the only way your going to grab the tier set bonuses for the 5 raid members who use the same tokens then they need to try and run it.

    I agree with Zar on a practical level.  There are very few cases where every raid member is held to the highest standard when it comes to being optimized, other then perhaps your own desire as a player not to be the one who isn’t trying the hardest to help your group win. 
    But fundamentally any source of gear that you can get is the optimal, and at that point it’s no longer a decision, it’s a calculation that is simply better and that doesn’t mean there’s a choice involved.  If you want to win, you take the statistically greatest item. Though this is where he’s right again, if speed isn’t an issue then there are other ways to get the gear, gradually through normals for instance, and this does make LFR optional.  The “gotta go fast” mentality that is perpetuated by the game’s nature (set release dates for raids, world/server first achievements, sponsored events) is the root of the problem and why people feel it is necessary.

    K, I’m done. TL:DR  Zar is smart but optimal raiding is stupid and doesn’t give “optional” choices.

    • http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

      There are big blockages in normal raids tho.  Example Elegon – only 4% of tries and its mostly based on DPS – DPS that you gain mostly by better weapons.  And best chance of bettter weapons right now is killing the boss AFTER Elegon in LFR.   Will bring you big boost in dmg that pushes you past the beserk timer.

  • Gronba

    In reallity it does not matter, what the game allows you to do. What matters it what the community thinks matters. If the general concensus is you most use consumeables, a specific addon or have a specific item level then you will either meet those requirements, or you will have a bloody hard time finding people to do stuff with

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dave-Dunn/704045321 Dave Dunn

      Perhaps…but demanding blizzard overhaul their game and development strategy because of an arbitrary mood of the community is ludicrous

      • Gronba

        I personally dont care what blizzard does with LFR, but IF the majority of the western community ends up with the firm belief that you have to do heroic and LFR and ontop of that sees it as a major problem, then my best guess is that blizzard will do something along the lines of making LFR and heroics reward the exact same gear (for the western market atleast) or something else they believe could mend the problem. 

        Why do I believe this? Just look at the shared lock out of 10 man and 25 in the west compared to the new approach in South Korea – if the demand is big enough Blizzard will make the needed changes at some point (even if we wont see them untill the next expasion)

        And just to make it clear, I am not saying that the demand for a fix to this “problem” is high enough, but if it is, then yes I do believe we will see a fix to it “soon”

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          That really is not a bad idea.  Give one lfr run the same chance of dropping heroic gear as lets say 7 heroics. 

      • jayremy

        why else make an MMO than to suit needs of the community?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dustin-Brookens/100003510262900 Dustin Brookens

    Stuff like this is why I dont watch Gambreaker near as much as I used to. These articles feel like they were written by someone paid by Blizzard to agree with them. Hell, if you watch Legendary Lore hates all this stuff and talks about how all this stuff IS mandatory.

    • http://twitter.com/AnesthesiaOlogy Josh E

      Here, here! GBTV has always been very player-centric and largely unbiased in these matters, sticking mainly to the news. 

    • http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

      Ye – GBTV is really tring to kiss up some few fans instead of actually daring to critisise the issues the game has.   And part of it is the progression for raiding teams.

      MAJORITY of ppl will have its first look at HOF from LFR.  Cause even if they wanted to raid… there are so many blockades beeing put up right now that its pointless to go there with a semi casual group that doesn’t have perfect setup.  And thats just sad.

      Not to mention – LFR is in most cases just horrible experience to take part in.  

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Olivia seems to enjoy playing WoW and clearly indicates what content she refuses to play.  See her stance on dailies.  I could see her saying, you dont want to run lfr, then just don’t run lfr. 

    • Maximus

      Lore’s talking from the perspective of a top-end progression-based guild, the type of GUILD that will require LFR gear. Zarhym and Olivia and Gary are right: nothing in the GAME requires you to have LFR gear. WoW does not check your gear to see if you have LFR gear before letting you into normal raids. You are not locked out of normal mode raids if you don’t have LFR gear. THAT’S the crux of the argument: NOTHING in the GAME forces you to do LFR. 

      It’s not your fault you misunderstood the entire article and then proceeded to question the integrity of GameBreaker. YOU misunderstood the argument, the article is completely fine AND correct

  • http://twitter.com/AnesthesiaOlogy Josh E

    - How badly are you really hurting your raid by not running LFR? Is your progression in normal difficulty such that upgrading from a piece of ilvl 463 gear to 476 gear is “make or break” for the entire raid? With stat inflation, the difference between these item levels is almost negligible, unless you’re comparing full sets. But in the amount of time it might take you to get several upgrades via LFR, you should be getting several upgrades via normal difficulty — and you get a head start on normal difficulty with Raid Finder always releasing at least a week later.
    Problem: Sometimes your first kills really are at the last second when those couple points make EVERY bit of the difference. When I was in a semi-casual guild, our first normal Cho’gall kill in Cata was a literal last second down to one person racing the boss down from 600k, dying at 16k at the same moment the resto shammy ankhs, and then getting that one pop shot crit in to finish the boss before getting crushed.

    Would we have finished the fight on the next attempt? Maybe, but who’s to say? 

    The real problem here is the large chunk of the player base that Blizzard is ignoring. The argument is that essentially you’re either a heroic raiding guild that wouldn’t need anything from LFR or that LFR makes no difference in clearing normal modes. Basically, you’re either so good that you only work on heroics or you only work on normals.

    Sure, the top small percentile of guilds are full-clear heroic guilds with full heroic gear that will instaclear normal and go straight to the next heroic. What about all those guilds that consistently only get half-way or a little over halfway through heroics? They don’t have full heroic gear, and they’ll need the advantage of LFR gear to try to compete doing the beginning of heroics each tier. What about the guilds that can consistently only do the first couple heroic bosses? They’re certainly not going to have full heroic gear. The last part of normal mode is probably challenging for them. Upgrading from a normal weapon to the next tier’s LFR weapon will always be noticeable DPS increase. Weapons are huge. Healers can usually tlel when tanks change much of anything. Maybe upgrading just gloves wouldn’t be noticeable, but perhaps upgrading your tanks gloves and chest would be enough that healers can stretch their mana just that extra bit further that’s needed.

    Blizzard is ignoring the majority of their raiding player base with this.

    It’s because of this attitude why I no longer have any respect for Blizzard as a company.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/YSVAPKVBUPTX6YS3W2DLPOBNN4 AlokP

      If you’re only half-clearing heroic modes, then you’re not competitive. End of story. There’s no race, and you can afford to gear up over a course of weeks as opposed to days. Blizz’s job in the middle of that mess is to make sure there aren’t roadblocks that frustrate you to the point of giving up on the raid.

  • http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

    476 items are much better than HC gear.  Specially the 476 weapons that you have very very very very low chance of getting in heroics.  They matter soo much in the overall progression of your raiding team.  And you dont get ANY chance of weapons until last boss in Vaults.  Sorta says it all.

    Secondly – there is the issue of 10 mans vs 25 mans.  Since you will not be running with alot of specs in 10 mans- there is a bigger chance that items will drop that no1 uses or doesn’t benefit the raid..  That means that the raid is not progressing cause after all – the progression is based mostly on itemlvl.

    So – if a 10 man raiding guild is not doing LFR but instead wiping endlessly based on low ilvl…    Stupid – And its even more stupid for BLizzad to come out and say that LFR is not a key component in gearing up atm.    Cause it is.

  • Passio1

    I can understand why Gary and Olivia are siding with Zarhym over this issue but i don`t think this makes them right. 
    They are all correct that nothing in the game forces you to run LFR, but as long as there is a higher item level on LFR gear than there is on gear you get from running dungeons, you are always going to make raiders feel like they have to do this to give yourself a better chance of beating content. It doesn`t matter that the increases are only slight. 
    Is eating buff food necessary to beat content? Of course not. Yet no guild trying to down content would dream of not having this minor buff to your stats. 
    Its a double standard on Blizzards part which annoys me. 
    They enforce a shared lockout on 10 mans and 25 mans which brought about a sharp decline in 25 man guilds but it stopped players from having to do the same raid twice a week. 
    That is perfectly fine for them to take this measure even though i don`t agree with how it was done. 
    But to throw another raid difficulty in which again gives people upgrades from dungeons and then claim that players are not forced to do this is a slap in the face of most savvy raiders out there. 
    The long and short of this is that LFR pays more money into the Blizzard coffers and thats no bad thing. 
    The easy fix would be to nerf the item level of the gear that you get in LFR and then the people interested in progressing through normal modes wouldn`t feel inclined to do this weekly on top of their raid. 
    Here`s the catch though folks……if you removed all the competent raiders and left LFR to the lesser skilled players and the ultra-casuals, how easy do you think they would have to make the content for people to clear it and still get to experience all the raids? 

    Basically, although they won`t publicly admit this……..Blizzard need the competent raiders to feel obliged to do this content otherwise they would have to make LFR a bigger joke than it is already. 

  • tawnos42

    Yah sorry, it is required.  Gear inflation hasn’t made a 13 ilvl different irelevant by any stretch of the imagination.

  • Michael Kubath

    Every one that plays WoW knows that it is a heavily gear based game, and that the gear is that big carrot on the stick that keeps players subbed and playing the game.  In any stetting you will always feel that that some one is being let down (whether it is you raid group or your self) if you do not run LFR on a weekly basis.  thus by saying that the carrot does not matter so much blizzard is telling players not to continue playing there game. 

    TL:DR – does not matter if blizzard makes to much or to little”content” players will look for some thing to point at and say that is why I quit WoW.

  • Deathstar2x

    “D) You’re not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep running LFR each week for gear if you want to be successful in the higher difficulties.”

    Yeah, just like you’re not forced by the game (AT ALL) to keep the Sunwell/Icecrown Radiance debuff on if you want to be successful in a progressive raiding guild.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Eric-OConnor/1431530444 Eric O’Connor

    I knew there was a reason I didn’t like this guy, and this further validates my point. I’m not one of those people saying you should remove the LFR from the game entirely or anything of that magnitude. I think most people will at least agree that the can of worms was opened, and its something we all have to deal with.

    Perhaps the original poster provided little to no constructive information. In additional raid tiers, its is true that LFR is not exactly “required”, however saying that the ilvl difference between heroic dungeon gear and LFR is a non-issue is like asking raiders if they would rather have a full set of BIS heroic raid gear for heroic raid progress, or a full set of BIS normal raid gear for heroic raid progress. He can call it a “playstyle choice” all he likes, but there are logistical realities to end game raiding that simply can’t be ignored. It is much like a lot of things since the start of Cataclysm, the illusion of choice. 

    I can theoretically “choose” to not run my daily quests everyday as well, but that means that until I get a piece to replace that particular item slot with, I likely have a 463 blue. In many raid environments, that may be acceptable, and thats fine. Its also true, that in many raid environments that someone who puts forth that effort will raid over someone who does not. Therefore the choice is to give yourself every advantage possible, or risk loosing a more desirable raid slot.

    That being said, I feel LFRs this teir are a vast improvement than the way they were placed in the game back in Dragon Soul.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JD5RIAPTFFZFIF3DCNYVVG7NIQ Kyle Bohannon

    of course no one is FORCED to do anything. its a game. but if you want to give your guild, group the best possible chance of beating an encounter (and your gear is still of the ilevel of dungeons) then you run lfr until you replace it.

    im glad that i never cared about pve back when i played, between managing a group of 10 or 25 people and ensuring their gear is up to par and having to deal with your own gear it would be a headache and more of a 2nd job than a game.

  • blackrazzorx

    The modern MMO gamer is a strange beast. They complain when there’s not enough end game content. They complain when there is too much end game content.

    Now we have progession guild members, who are *supposed* to be the more hardcore and dedicated players, complaining about an entirely optional tier that might throw a half decent piece of gear in their direction once in awhile.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=537601843 Rob Dexter

    It’s a no-brainer. If you don’t do LFR, your gear won’t be the best before doing normal raids. The less LFR gear your raid has, the slower and harder doing normal raids will be. In a progressive guild, you’d be out of a raid spot if you didn’t do LFR unless you’re so spit-hot that your dps/heals/tanking skills are better than someone’s who DOES do LFR. Good luck with that. I’m starting to lose faith in Blizz. That guy who recently got sacked from Blizz? I wonder what he said? Maybe it was too close to the truth for their comfort?! Oh, and don’t get me started on that horrible CRZ!

    Note to ‘blackrazzorx’; I think you’re underestimating things a tad with that “once in a while” bit.  I got something from most runs, often two pieces.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      The guy got fired for shooting his mouth off about class balance in a third party forum. You have to imagine many MMO/game companies have fearsome political infighting over class balance.   

    • Maximus

      In a PROGRESSIVE guild, you have to do the most you can. That’s going to include changing race to get the best racials, changing professions to get the best bonus, but those AREN’T required by the GAME to do Normals. I know of tons of guilds that cleared normal MSV even before LFR was out and many that are just not doing LFR because they hate it, and they’re accomplishing it. 

      Many guild AREN’T progression-focused to the extent that you have to change race, change professions, etc. Many guilds just require you to have the minimum iLvL and know what you’re doing. 

      Again, nothing in the GAME is forcing you to do LFR, many guilds DON’T do LFR, it’s only the PROGRESSION guilds that “require” players to do LFR. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/inkogni.alex Inkogni Alex

    what happened to Netflix Gary, you two were doing so great. on another note, will we have more Rift random plugs on Legendary and TWIMMO ? 
    for me (when did play) it felt normal dungeon> hc dungeon/LRF > normal raids/LFR > hc raids, yup they messed up. and geming EXPENSIVE gems in my hc dungeon gear is just expensive and kinda dumb 

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Posters uses to accuse Gamebreakertv from taking checks from Blizzard or Activision.  Looks like Trion Worlds is now a sponsor for GamebreakerTV.

      Looking forward to the return of the Rift show. Wonder which GamebreakerTV host will raid in Rift?

      • http://www.facebook.com/inkogni.alex Inkogni Alex

        pokket is my best bet, maybe Jasmine (small chance) maybe they will recruit a new memeber thats into Rift
        about Activision giving checks to Gary, thats BS :D

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          Pokket has a chance, but not sure if she will start raiding in Rift. She seems to still be raiding in SWTOR. 

          Jasmine seems to be busy raiding in WoW. So, I agree a small chance. 

          I think both Q and Jason are playing Rift this weekend.  

          It will be interesting to see if any of the GamebreakerTV host will start hardcore raiding in Rift.   Can you really have an opinion on Rift raiding if it is all based on second hand or other published works.   

  • Anhan

    I think the one thing that is really getting left out is the RNG loot drops. We are de’ing the drops cause they are same and nobody can use them. This is making progression difficult. I could see skipping LFR if downing a boss = getting gear but that is just not the case sometimes. So when you get stuck hitting the enrage timer on a boss one week and you come back the next week with no gear upgrades there’s not much reason to expect a different result. I know heroic raiders are clearing normals in a loin cloth but thats why they are heroic raiders. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/Z36GPOU3Q2QIQYBIDVNQAVGNGE Raul

    I can smell the arrogance from here.
    Wow is becoming less fun and more joblike with each patch.

    World of gentrified cookiecutter lemmingcraft.

    C’thun sighs, and goes back to it’s fitful slumber.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jason.ackerman.96 Jason Ackerman

    Of course the game isn’t FORCING you to do anything, but players could be continuing what they were already doing before LFR.  It’s part of why I quit playing.  I would get on and it would be the 1st day of a new dungeon and someone would complete that new dungeon and from that point on anyone that was to group up with that person that completed the NEW dungeon had to have the achievement showing that they had completed it as well.  This would happen with other achievements and gear scores as well.  Everyone starts off with not having everything, but many players acted like they were born with the knowledge of every part of the game.  I was just not fun anymore.

  • http://twitter.com/QuietNine Quiet

    As long as LFR gear is better than heroic dungeon gear (ala stat bonus) it WILL be mandatory. Period. As long as LFR is mandatory, players will get burned out running the same thing on LFR +normal every lockout. then game dies even faster.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lpeace.88 Leo Lamphier

    Its only mandatory to the major hardcore player. So if your not a super hardcore play and you don’t want to run LFR then don’t. If you are a hardcore then stop whining that is the play style you put your self in. If your guild is making you run LFR then and your don’t want to maybe look in to changing guilds. Its not Blizzards fault you or your guild are making you run LFR. So stop crying about it already LFR is here to stay.

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