Blizzard report they are considering changes to the 5-man loot system


Written by: (@oliviadgrace) | October 17, 2012 5:06 pm

Blizzard report they are considering changes to the 5-man loot system
46 Comments

Blizzard Blue Taepsilum has weighed in on a forum thread discussing the potential implementation of what’s referred to as the Need Plus system in 5-man instances. If readers recall, the Need Plus system was the previous iteration of the Raid Finder loot system, where certain specs and certain classes would have 100 points added to their rolls for certain items, and indeed weren’t permitted to roll need on other items.

Many have bemoaned the absence of this system in 5-man dungeons, and with players’ reliance on 5-man content for gearing at the very start of Mists, it is not surprising that the complaints have increased in severity and frequency. While there is a kind of priority system in place in dungeons already, it doesn’t work like the Raid Finder system did, and indeed allows some very strange need rolls.

For example, in the Cataclysm era Raid Finder, if a healer and a DPS rolled on a spirit item, the healer would receive a 100 point bonus to their roll, to ensure that they beat the DPS player to the item. There were also divisions between classes.  For example, the two healing classes who could roll on shields with spirit on them could only roll on those shields, and not on off-hands, which were restricted to non-shield-using healers. So a shaman, despite being able to equip a spirit off-hand from the Cataclysm-era Raid Finder, such as the Ledger of Revolting Rituals, could not win on it — their roll was treated like they were a DPS.

So should this system be implemented in 5-man dungeons? There are several advantages and disadvantages, but victims of other players ‘ninja’ behavior in rolling need on items which they clearly don’t would likely argue in the positive. My paladin tank is inexplicably able to need on almost everything, while my shaman’s rolls are far more restricted, perhaps simply as paladins could theoretically equip every class of armor. But agility leather is no use for my paladin.

It would certainly put a damper on the antics of certain players who roll need on every thing they can need on, just planning to vendor it for gold. However, in downsides, it would make it far harder for players to build an off-set, as was regularly pointed out in reference to the Raid Finder’s loot system. But should players who are building an off-set not perform their off-spec role if they wish to need on those items?

It’s certainly a difficult task to balance the system, but what do you think? Is is best to maintain the current system? Or would something like the earlier ‘Need Plus’ Raid Finder system work better? Or another system altogether?


  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1653322492 Kevin J. Redmond

    More importantly, that picture you used for the article is hilarious.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mary.holly1 Mary Holly

    It’s too bad people have to have their hands held for loot instead of being smart enough/non-greedy enough to know if they “need” something more than another member of the group or raid.

  • ZackForester

    It shouldn’t take hundreds of runs of the same instance to get the gear you need when it’s dropped multiple times already. You should perform the role you’re needing on. You don’t give tank gear to dps in raids unless the tank is already geared and you don’t give dps gear to healers unless the dps are already geared. They just need to make sure that the need for offspec rolls are placed in priority above the greed roll so offspec gear isn’t constantly getting disenchanted when someone can use it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001885871804 Troy LeBlanc

    I am in favor of this system. During Cataclysm, my TG Fury Warrior, whom I considered my main at the time was lucky enough to win the Gurthalak – Voice of the Deeps 2H sword from the Madness of Deathwing encounter. Since I was TG, equipping two of them was optimal. Yet every week for MONTHS on end I would continue to get out-rolled by every other plate class for my second Gurthalak. And it didn’t even matter what spec those classes were in. For example, DK’s who were specced for and equipping 1 handed swords would roll and win. Prot Warriors would roll for need for offspec and win. DK’s, Arms Warriors and Ret Pallys who were already quipping Gurthalak would roll and win just to vendor, or up a guildies chance at it. This left me very frustrated and ultimately I gave up trying since MoP was weeks away anyways. I am definitely in favor of a system that prioritizes spec and possibly even takes into consideration a players currently equipped gear when giving roll bonuses. For example, Ret Paladin already equipping a Raid Finder iLevel Gurthalak during the fight couldn’t possibly roll need, because he or she obviously would have no use for 2 of them. 

    • Monkeyjman

      Why are there still random drops? Move to a token system for main gear, bosses drop tokens that everyone gets. You use them to buy gear from a vendor. Have bosses drop certain flavor rare skins that you use to transmog with.

      Ninja looting dealt with, Able to gear main role and off sets at your pace and not at the pace of rng. Yeah ok without rng drop the life of content could be shortened but they (Blizz) can adjust the token drop number or price from vendor to extend current content  untill new content is released.

      Itterate on how GW2 are doing things, not like Blizz dont do that anyway. Its not as if we have not asked for this years ago.

      RNG drops extend content. Go ahead kids chase the carrot.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kirzansix Mike Coulombe

    Add “Role ilvl”, make some nice algorithm, win.

  • http://twitter.com/stoppableforce stoppablefrc#1964

    But should players who are building an off-set not perform their off-spec role if they wish to need on those items?

    Sure, I’ll just pop right into a heroic with my 437s from quest–oh, wait, there’s not enough for a full set if I wanted to gear my main spec too.

    Okay, then, I’ll just run some normals to get some g–oh, that’s right, dinging 90 locks you out of normal Pandaria dungeons.

    Fine, then I can just buy adventuring g–oh, that’s right, that tops out at 408, far below what’s needed for heroics.

    Locking people out of offspec gear systematically is an idiotic idea; it was dumb in the raid finder, it would be dumb now.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Grimm/1290540679 David Grimm

      False. Locking people out of off-spec gear and forcing them to play the spec they gear is a great idea. Having no 90 cap normal mode dungeons is the problem. It is also much harder to fix. IMO, they should just lower the ilvl requirement for heroics. These MOP heroics are terribly easy anyways.

  • Miguel Justiniano

    Contributing to the problem is with the relatively high iLvl requirement to be eligible to run LFR.

    Because heroics are the most reliable way to get yourself over the iLvl 460 threshold, people are needing on anything the system allows them to so they can get into LFR as quickly as possible.  There’s also a host of other issues this has caused but I’ll leave that for another discussion.  In general I will never roll need on off-spec gear, but when I was stuck at iLvl 458-459 for like 10 straight heroic runs, I was awfully tempted to just hit need on an off-spec piece just to get my item grind over with.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F6AZP42EYWGF5ZRW7FRIRNFDG4 Johnny Bravo

    Who lit the bonfire under blizzards feet? I don’t think i’ve seen them EVER implement new programs this fast or even admitting they are in the near future (We will take under advisement is not a we are in the Forums according to Blizzard history. Now if they’d only make people using BOA gear have to goto a special BG like XP cappers they could be telling us that the world is coming to and a end and I’d believe them.)

  • tawnos42

    So I had no idea they hadn’t fixed the fact that classes that can’t even use the gear could roll need on it.  I was doing a lfd and a hunter rolled need on a str-based tanking cloak (blatantly admitting he had no other use for it than to vendor).  Two years ago it was plausible they hadn’t patched the system up to remove this as they had only just fully implemented a sytstem that made gear outside of one’s archtype useless.  One year ago it was ridiculous, 6 months ago it was absurd.  Now, with an entire new expansion and they haven’t managed to fix something that became obvious 2 years ago?

    I have no problem either way with them changing it to the role-based bonus or not, but at least fix classes that can’t even use the item rolling need just to be a total douche.

  • tawnos42

    So I had no idea they hadn’t fixed the fact that classes that can’t even use the gear could roll need on it. I was doing a lfd and a hunter rolled need on a str-based tanking cloak (blatantly admitting he had no other use for it than to vendor). Two years ago it was plausible they hadn’t patched the system up to remove this as they had only just fully implemented a sytstem that made gear outside of one’s archtype useless. One year ago it was ridiculous, 6 months ago it was absurd. Now, with an entire new expansion and they haven’t managed to fix something that became obvious 2 years ago?

    I have no problem either way with them changing it to the role-based bonus or not, but at least fix classes that can’t even use the item rolling need just to be a total douche.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      You can’t roll need on gear you can’t equip.   The problem pops up when players roll need on gear that doesn’t have good stats for them, like hunters rolling on everything.   

      • ReAlIzEr

        define: “…hunters rolling on everything”.  last i checked any class that could use an item could roll for it – low lvls aside where everyone can roll need on everything.  My plate wearing warrior has rolled need many a times on everything, specially when a “needer” is in the group rolling need on everything.

  • A1cntrler

    This made me wonder if I, as a Demonology Warlock, could roll need on 2H weapons.  I do have a glyph that allows my Felguard to equip them, and my Wrathguard, if I choose that route in my talents can equip 2 of them..  I’m not a douche however and never even consider rolling need on anything other than that which is an upgrade or is able to be used by me.  I am an Enchanter too, and would NEVER consider rolling need for a few essences/bust/shards.  If a green/blue BoE drops, or even the BoP items drop I always roll greed.  That was if I do win it I can DE it using my guild perk and hope for an extra dust or two.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=573958074 Alexis Coelho

    DOOO ITTTTT!

  • rastinrazner

    I am all for this change. Being a tank, it is extremely frustrating losing tanking gear to dps. If you want gear for your spec run in that spec.

  • rastinrazner

    I would fully support this implementation. Being a tank, it is very frustrating to lose tanking gear repeatedly to dps. If you want gear for an offspec run in that spec. With crafted pve/pvp gear you can easily reach the ilevels to get into heroics.

  • Robert DeLeon

    I would support this as being a tank I feel if you want to roll need on gear then run the instance/raid/etc in the spec you wish to progress on.  While I know some claim that everyone is putting in the same effort and should be able to roll need on whatever they want I feel this statement is half true.  Tank and healers have to worry about other things aside from just beating on the behind of the boss and most of the time tank’s are now responsible for interrrupts (since dps don’t wanna do it), boss placement, etc.  When I want to gear up my OS I will usually queue up as a DPS or talk on chat if no dps players needs if they mind if I need it….communicating many still are scared of.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/miljan.stanojevic.503 Miljan Stanojevic

    they need a new system, not to fix old one…

  • http://glacius.pip.verisignlabs.com/ braykrbr8krCmB0oo

    I seriously don’t understand why they don’t just do an everyone-get-their-own-loot thing like Diablo III or Guild Wars 2.  They could do it in such a way that you would get gear that is useful to your class at approximately the same rate.

    Rolling for loot is and always was a dumb system.  It’s just taken for granted now because the need for it is based upon other systems which are themselves flawed.

    • Tomasz Guzik

      They will never put that in because it makes the grind quicker (you always get an item vs you a chance an item you need drops + you might not win it if you have competition). And WoW is nothing without the grind (which is linked with dem moneyz every month).

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      Well, I don’t remember GW2 being that way. I was always picking up gear my profession could not uses.  Lots of salvaging and visits to the Mystic Forge going on.

      Now, I wouldn’t mind if WoW picked up only allowing the classes to equip the gear that is best for their class.  Warriors can only equip plate, hunters can only equip mail, druids can only equip leather…

      This would reduce some players from needing on everything they could equip, but never would.  Stop the hunters from needing on mail, leather and cloth gear. 

  • Tim Whitehead

    Well if it works I say about time. Even those you blaze through Classic, TBC and Wrath content these days someone ninjaring an item that they can’t even use in a 5 man is still annoying as hell.

  • elha72

    about time they need to do something as a holy priest I lose rolls all the time to classes that dont need to wear cloth like a pally so something needs to be fixed…. 1 dg a pally tank needed cloth wrist that was a upgrade for me I asked for them he said tough..so I needed on a pc he needed oh the rage began…I dont like doing that but eye for a eye

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KEZVTITPXJ5K55O2HXR4D5K4XE steve

    I say if you need gear for your os, then you need to enter the dungeon in that os. But ninjas will just find another way to screw people.

  • jadies87

    Agreed, something needs to change, i lost two pieces of dps gear to the tanks on 2 consecutive dg’s, very annoying, especially now valor takes so long to get also so buying valor gear for upgrades takes awhile.
    Stop worrying about gearing off spec untill you can fix people getting their main spec gear. If you want off spec gear run the dg in that spec simple.

  • http://www.facebook.com/justin.pfeifer.58 Justin Pfeifer

    The sooner the better hate all these fail clowns needing on gear for the ilvl

  • http://twitter.com/Jreb_ james nichols

    I think that if you are going to be all butt hurt over losing a need roll you shouldn’t run dungeons…. If you have two plate wearers in the group then you both have a 50/50 chance on winning the item

  • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

    The “Need Plus” system would be okay. Still doesn’t solve all the conflict.  DKs and warriors will complain when a weapon that is best for them drops and the other class wins the role. 

    Healers will complain when a spriest or boomkin win a spirit staff, even if both classes can use spirit.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brandon-Evans/1603660859 Brandon Evans

    When the raid finder first came out I was like, now why didn’t they already do this for 5 mans.    Being a tank I hate when pvp geared plate dps roll on tanking items I need.   The main reason for this is becasue tanking items have the lowest drop rate.  I think this is due to tanks being able to insta que on 5 mans.   Also when I roll need on a dps item I ask if anyone else needs it first.

  • ReAlIzEr

    hummmm…1. need / pass / greed roll system  -  check.2. roll bonus +100 system  -  check.
    3. players capable of clicking buttons – check.3. MS &OS roll program recognition -  …   …   ….4. Item EQ’ed recognition – … … …
    5. ilvl of gear equiped on player / in bags / in bank – check.
    6. Has everyone in party won and item from current dungeon ( green / blue / purple / BoE ) …   …   …

    The basic system is there and favours Guild / Friend based groupings that respect eachother and everyone has a goal..etc.  The random grouping system however allows every possible “game play style” - farmers / money makers / material collectors / t-mog collectors …etc…  Everyone falls into their own category and subcategory and because of this free form system (basic as it is), it allows for more interesting game play and is the player that defines it.

     (thinks to self – players love to hate and hate on others.  hummm trolls)

    It is easy to add in spec / item need / and who won what recognition, but do you want that system where your basicly getting everything you want all the time.?  Blizzard does not want that [period].  When you take the grind and challenge and ( the loss ) out of the game, you take the fun out of it weather you realize it or not.  We love to hate, oh do we love to hate, as well as win and feel rewarded.

    It takes 13 days to lvl to 90 and a week to gear 2 specs without trying already. There are other options in the game as well to get gear - seek them out.

  • http://twitter.com/Shammoz Phil

    There has long been a need for a better loot system in dungeons. It is probably one of the most often complained about subject on the CS forums and very likely one of the highest reasons for opening a ticket (Account compromise likely the highest). I do hope they implement something better, but I can’t help but recall the times we were told before that the LFR loot system *may* extend to dungeons but never has.. I hope this time they follow through. This being said, the need for an offspec need roll is needed (Need pun intended) :D

  • http://twitter.com/oliviadgrace Olivia Grace

    Best… Header…. Ever!

  • http://www.facebook.com/betriano Beckie Triano

    This would be

  • http://www.facebook.com/betriano Beckie Triano

    This should already be implemented . I’ve had 3 pieces of heroic tank gear ninja’d offa me already… I am sooo disappointed

  • Rob1003

    Off sp

    • Dave Paison

      I disagree, but only to a certain point.

      I used to play a Prot Paladin in PvE.  I enjoyed tanking and when in instances I really liked filling a role that was in such high demand.  However, leveling as Prot was kind of a joke.  Sure, it could be done, but it wasn’t fun.  I had to be Ret to knock out my dailies and grind out quests.  I would be at a HUGE disadvantage if the system took that kind of priority.  A reverse scenario could occur, as well.  Maybe I am only DPSing, because I am trying to get the gear I need so that I can tank.  Sure, I’d let the tank or DPS go nuts, but I don’t want items restricted to me just because I am not that appropriate spec.  If that were the case, then giving us multiple specs is worthless.

      When it comes to drops, I’m not sure I even see the point anymore.  Eventually the drops will be worse than worthless and Heroics will just be full of point pinatas that we explode to buy gear off of vendors.  Skip the trivial loot and up the points before putting in this system.  Let me actually prioritize what I want and in what order I get it.  We see the same cycle every expansion, I don’t expect much to change here.  We are close to getting another content patch that will undoubtedly bring better rewards from other systems.  

      Putting this in now is utterly pointless and serves to do nothing but frustrate people.  Wait until before next expansion to release this.  At least get the system right.  I still hear stories of people getting gear for the wrong spec to this day.

    • Vasilij Chopaak

      I was going to write basically the same statement. I completely agree. Especially with main-spec only. Not only it can be downright cruel if someone wins the item for an off-spec (the item then may not drop in two months if you are unlucky (like I was during the days with unbelievably pretty shield called Royal Crest of Lordaeron back in WotLK. It didn’t drop, after I lost roll as a tank there to a dps pally, for over 9 weeks. Despite the fact I was farming it every single day.)), also on the other hand main spec only system can actually make you a better player in your spec by forcing you to practice it in 5 mans.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jonathon.simon.3 Jonathon Simon

    this is why blizzard sucks. the are considering it to fix a problem that exists. THEY TAKE FOREVER TO FIX THINGS. its incredible. anet fixes things on the spot. blizzard is very sad now

  • http://twitter.com/thavleifrim nathan law

    good, i ran siege of the temple heroic for ages trying to get the tank shoulders, it finally dropped on like the 20th run and the bloody healer of all people ninja’s them.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=504446733 Jaden Knight F’thewin

    I think blizz need to start seeing it as Main spec / off spec rather the duel spec so a paladin with ret / prot should not be able to roll need on resto gear but the other pala with prot/resto should be able to need on it without the role
    so the people that are playing as one but gearing the other should be able to do so but not at the expence of the guy that is doing it there and now as his current spec

  • Richard Grøterud

    Make it simple, if the tank click need on a tank item and some other class who can use it aswell clicks need, the tank wins it, however if the tank does not need, the other class wins it.

    Same with dps, if a enhancement shaman rolls need on agi items (mail, trinkets,rings and neck) and another shaman with elemental spec rolls need for his Offspec gear, the enhancement shaman wins.

    So i guess the +100 is in order.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1430932552 Troy Johnson

    you know there’s a flip side to this.  Say they put in this system, and lets say I want to start playing a healer and need the gear from heroics to raid, I’m already max geared as dps.  Now, logically I should setup a 436 or above healing set before entering 5 mans.  Realistically, I’ll use my Ret gear score to bypass the Heroic gear checker and go in not nearly geared enough for my job and end up causing my group even more grief than if I was in their as a dps doing what I needed to do and then rolling on gear for my offspec.

    • http://twitter.com/Einchy Einchy

      I’d prefer you get some healer gear before queuing up as a healer.  Here’s some ways.
      Get honor gear, it’s actually good now.
      Get conquest gear, it’s almost always better than the 463 stuff.

      Run heroics to get JP and buy the JP gear.  While doing this, roll only on the healer gear that the healer already has.  You could always also run dungeons with friends and guarantee that you get the healer gear by bringing in a geared healer. 

      Or you can always roll need on healer gear and be a complete dickwad, it seems like this is the option you prefer. 

      My alt Pally got to 90 4 days ago, I leveled as Ret.  Just by needing on things healers didn’t need and by buying JP stuff, I was doing LFR a day after hitting 90s.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3E2LHOMCZC3WKNS2O343WYOUUQ Darren

    Something needs to change.  A Mastery trinket with a dodge proc dropped in a run and a shaman rolled Need and won. When questioned they simply replied: I need mastery.  They were promptly insulted and kicked.

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