The Republic: Down 25% -- The Star Wars: The Old Republic Show

http://twitter.com/ByronLumley Byron Lumley

It is a great game play it.

kyle robinson

Lies !!!!
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Willi-Enderle/1668850948 Willi Enderle
  
  damn right

http://twitter.com/Threefiddie Landon Loper

So it goes from 2.4 million sold to 1.3 million subs in 4 months. That ain’t good I don’t care who you are.

H S

and that 1.3 was counted at “the end of April” , which means it included all the free reactivated accounts and 30 day giveaways. Now we know why they gave 30 days free to people who were “subbed” mid april, since all those 3 month cards were due to expire mid April.

So now that means if you bought a 3 month card on release, your new expiration date is now middle May. Watch now, when D3 releases and the 3 monther’s expire, Swtor will become a graveyard.
- http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NR2MMC4EJXJWJMLH6IF457XL64 Alex B
  
  It was actually as of March 31, aka the end of FY12 for EA. (which would put the 1.7M number as of 31 Jan, aka end of Q312 for EA).
  - H S
    
    good god, please stop misinforming people, read the pdf file, page 7. Exact quote-
    Through the end of the quarter, approximately 2.4 million units have sold through. In our last call we indicated that we had 1.7 million active subscribers, and as of the “END OF APRIL” we now have 1.3 million,
    
    They said that so they could include all those 3 months subs who would have canceled by Mid April and all those accounts who were reactivated, to show up in the padded numbers.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7UCDEUKEHKZZCEGBRAQAKTOFOY The Undeniable Truth

A 25% drop is not good, and there is no way you can spin it to be anything but disastrous. Especially considering a major competitor’s MMO is getting ready to launch.

http://twitter.com/spaacez spaace

I think it’s a very serious thing..
I play/payed with a bunch of PVPers on Hedarr Soongh, and I know we’re all fed up with the low pop and same 10 people every pvp match. Everybody is jumping on Fatman(east) or Swiftsure(west), giving those servers 1h+ queues, while the people on the small servers are fed up and leaving for other games (gw2, tera)

H S

Hey Larry, a little honest math. If you had 1.7 mil Feb 1st, sold 300k more copies since then, and now have 1.3(with old accounts reactivated) that’s a loss of 700k in 3 months. At that rate, the game will be dead in five months.

Jado Cast

It’s possible the die hard players and die hard star wars fans will keep it going once it gets < 500K. If it goes below that before the end of the year, they are probably in serious trouble. But look how long Galaxies stayed online with a very small base of players? They really need to go truly F2P like Aion did to get a surge in traffic and cash.
- samhainous
  
  I agree they need to go F2P. For one, the game is not the most visually stimulating. So if it isn’t hardware intensive (meaning you can play it on older systems), it seems like a perfect candidate to reach a much larger audience by being F2P. I think galaxies stayed around for so long because of the private servers and the IP alone. I mean did they really support it much the past 5 years by adding much to it? I really don’t know so that’s a real question.
  - Jado Cast
    
    LOL, well they did put out that big patch before going dark. :-) That’s about it.

kyle robinson

Time tells the truth SWTOR is garbage period. As more time progresses more will leave. You guys really need to go back to supporting Rift beacuse its a A+ MMO and nothing has come out yet that can compare to it. Again SWTOR is a huge fail just like DCUO actually DCUO might be better I can still jump on DCUO every now and them. SWTOR was a huge let down and I love the star wars genra. They need to scrap this project and make another KOTOR just make it online like skyrim.

Scsquared

Agreed, they should go back to supporting Rift!!!!
Arran Weddle

Yeah, online like Skyrim…

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_AT2CL2HMP7KKRTTZZDTTGJM72U yahoo-AT2CL2HMP7KKRTTZZDTTGJM72U

typical hype from you guys,do you ever not go for shock value?or doomsaying?

the people that have quit wouldnt still be playing anyways.perhaps we dont want people that dont like the game or whine alot.perhaps instead of saying omg theyre leaving…we should say good riddance,dont let the screen door hit you on the arse on the way out.

kyle robinson

Also Larry’s fanboyism is nausiating.

easytoread

Ive read that Swtor sold 2.4million units. Surely 1.3m subs is about a 40% drop? I don’t know…not sure with all these companies what numbers they care to include in their maths.

http://twitter.com/LiamRdsn Liam Richardson

It’s down because the pvp and pve haven’t improved much, if not gotten worse in regards to pvp.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte

All one has to do is follow any kind of forums for video games, and you’ll understand why I believe a lot of us “original gamers” (I was a kid back when the ATARI came out) can’t stand these communities. While I can appreciate having SO many choices now available to give my gaming dollars to, younger people seem to have a “Highlander” mentality. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE… and if the game you like/enjoy isn’t it, it has to die.

Not only does it have to die, they have to spout their vitriolic garbage EVERYWHERE. If you don’t like this game, stop reading it’s forums and stop worrying about how it’s doing. Move on. Ignore it. I don’t know who you are, I don’t care about your opinion… it’s not going to sway my opinion about something.

Chances are I’m not alone in this sentiment. I’ve yet to play a game that has been perfect. You’ll never find one. Even games that are GREAT can lose followers over time as more and more options start to surface. The sooner people get this through their thick skulls to their pea-sized intellects the better.

/end rant

kyle robinson

Your missing the point we are mad and continue to comment on the forums reviewing said games because we paid our money for the game plus a sub. So many of us feel ripped off…we are unhappy consumers and we are trying to warn prospective consumers who are thinking about wasting their money on this peice of garbage. Its like buying a new car and its has electrical issues that you have to keep bringing back to the manufacter for repairs…you just supposed to accept them.You sound like a 15 year old fanboy. I play more than one MMO so it has nothing to do with “there can be only one” it has everything to do with me investing $100+ on something that turned out to be a terrible investment.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1103680651 Dave Jeannotte
  
  You obviously didn’t read any of my post…
  
  15 year old fan boy? I clearly stated at the beginning of my post I was a kid when Atari came out. Try 40.
  
  How many non-MMOs do you play? How much do those cost? How long does the content last? Any MMO, that continually adds content to their game cost NO more than buying a single player/non-MMO game every 3 months. Is that an unrealistic time frame… tell me if I’m wrong. People stick with MMOs because they enjoy the persistent world that’s available. The fact that YOU didn’t like it and it didn’t live up to what YOU wanted out of it, these reasons don’t make it “garbage”.
  
  I’ve read your post history and I find it pretty hard to find any positive posts anywhere, so thanks for making my point about the current MMO community.
  - Jado Cast
    
    I’m in that group of “Atari Kids” and I’ve said for a while, I don’t get why there is a X vs. X mentality about games or anything else in America. There doesn’t have to be only “One.” Gamer’s are really competitive in nature just generalizing so I think it brings out the my game is better than your game mentality.
    
    However, I will say that many people play for persistent world and the multi-player experience, but I find that many stick with an MMO because of the community. People stay around because of their friends, guild mates, etc.
    - samhainous
      
      I think it has to do with the fact people don’t want to be wrong about anything ever. They want to feel safe in the fact that they made the best choice in how to spend their money and they’ll back it up by trolling or crapping on other games. Especially if their game seems to be on the wane. Only morons and rival companies want a game to fail but at least the rival companies have a valid excuse. Haters hate because they are themselves hated by others and themselves, and the anonymous nature of the internet gives them the freedom to troll. If you enjoy a particular game, play on playa. If others don’t, who gives a rat’s hairy butthole? Then again, people also feel the need to staunchly defend a game and company that isn’t giving them any money and is in fact, taking money from them. So all of this goes hand in hand. If you like a game and you post comments about how you like it, it’s reverse trolling. If you dislike a game and you go to the forums to particularly start trouble, that’s good old fashioned trolling. You just have to learn not to feed into it and I know it’s hard when you feel passionate about a particular game but people are going to be dicks no matter what so all we can do is try not to get worked up.
    - Jado Cast
      
      LOL “Reverse Trolling” Good one, haven’t read that before. You may have created new InterWebs Terminology. ;-)
samhainous

I think it’s funny you make your point by saying that the “younger” people who bitch about this game have pea-sized intellects and thick skulls. The exact kind of “vitriolic garbage” you seem to not like. So what’s the deal with that 40 year old hypocrite? I am 30, and even tho you have 10 more years of life experience on me, I can still see that you are the same as the naysayers. It’s just your opinion on the subject matter that differs.
Obviously no game is perfect. That’s all subjective and perception. It’s just your opinion seems ironic since you don’t like “vitriolic garbage EVERYWHERE” and then you add to that garbage. I guess your opinion is the right one.
http://profile.yahoo.com/2LCIYLFDZ6DH3IR2I7IY6ANQSU REMCO Estimating

I suspect some People Post Scathing Criticisms of Games in the Vain Hope that Someone from that Company will Read it and do something about it.

Truth is, most bad games are not necessarily the designer’s faults, it’s the Bean-Counters that have never played a game in their lives.

And the fact is, most Bean-Counters are so insulated from reality, that they wouldn’t know the truth if it was tattoo’d on their foreheads.

They are to busy trying to please the shareholders and the banks.

Lycronis

Sorry, but I have to disagree with Larry. WoW never lost subs after launch, not in any significant numbers at least. Sure, WoW didn’t really start to explode until around the 6 month mark but trying to say that SWTOR is doing comparable is just sad. Truth be told, SWTOR is in some serious trouble and trying to be grossly optimistic about it’s outlook is not going to help it. I’m not saying that the game is a failure or that it’s close to death, but it most definitely has failed to capitalize on the great opportunities they had.

In my opinion, SWTOR’s biggest problem is having a subscription fee, as I (and the majority of my friends) just don’t feel like the game offers enough to justify it. Honestly, I feel the game should be B2P and offer a good cash shop to support it. Oh well, it won’t really matter as there are MUCH better games coming in the near future that will overshadow SWTOR even more.

Jado Cast

After Beta testing SWTOR, I would of bought the game if it was B2P, but I just wasn’t about to Sub for a WoW clone in space with better story telling. Same goes for Rift, even though I did play it for a month after max level, I quickly unsubed. If it was B2P, I would still be playing it off and on. Oh well, GW2 will be here soon. I hope Zenimax wakes up and realizes that TES online needs to be B2P as well.

http://www.facebook.com/JIndeed Jon Hutch

SERVER MERGE NOW! I DONT WANT A GROUP FINDER, I DONT WANT CROSS SERVER QUEUING. SERVER MERGE NOW!. Doesn’t make your game look bad. What makes your game look bad is 50 light servers. No more content until you find a way to merge/transfer FOR FREE and make communities bigger.

Key Foster

THANK YOU!!!!! SOMEONE ELSE WITH A BRAIN!!!!! Instead of that bull about “if they do server mergers then the game is dieing”. Plain and simple, its more fun with a lot of ppl even if you just want to play solo, the feeling/look of life keeps ppl.
Jado Cast

I just wish companies would stop launching games with Home Servers, and just figure out a way that players can just play where ever they want at anytime. If there is PVP, then you can choose a PVP server and you can only represent that server. It’s really an antiquated way to launch an MMO imo. This would get rid of the problem and the whole, “mergers mean the game is dying” argument.

Randy McRandom

I am not sure how this could be considered “normal dropping”. 400,000 people left since March……that is 400,000 people gone in 3 months. 1 in 4 people quit the game (regardless of if they subbed for whatever time period). To me that is nuts. From different numbers they sold 2.4 million boxes. I KNOW that boxes sold does not equal subs but over a MILLION (over half!) people chose not to stay and play this game since December. That really surprises me. If we lost 25% of our client base at work crap would really hit the fan.

Edit: Larry really? WoW lost subs after 3-6 months after launch? Gosh maybe a tad but the population just kept growing for years…

H S

its actually worse than that. You need to take the EA CEO’s numbers, since he is the only one who even uses any during reports.

As of Feb 1st 1.7 million
Units sold since 300k
Total 2 million

as of 4/30/12 1.3(including reactivated accounts)
Loss from Feb 1st thru April 30th = 700k
233k lost per month.

http://www.facebook.com/tony.golightly Tony Golightly

great show, again. wish there was MORE reasons to be excited about SWTOR right now, but until i get a group finder i’m not interested.

and no, i dont actually want the group finder to be cross server, at least not for a while. SWTOR need more community tools to foster community, and this would be a big one.

gary lusk

the best swtor can do in the current mmo market is stabilize at a good number…i don’t expect subs to go up in any major way.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002811083296 Lauren Michele

Not enough class balance testing before release. I understand the fluid nature of MMOs. However, when your changes are so large that the slaughter a class I’ve already leveled to max, I’m out. Test longer. Test better. Only Blizzard can get away with en masse class changes post launch and it’s ludicrous enough that they do it.

samhainous

Which IP is larger and has been more profitable, Star Wars or Warcraft? Not counting just MMO’s.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ronny-Sunrock/100002737688676 Ronny Sunrock

There are no other IP in the world that is larger then Star Wars. Star Wars is even bigger then DC, Disney or Marvel.
- http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr
  
  Looks like Coca Cola has the largest IP. Its over 60b dollars. Go figure.
- samhainous
  
  Ok, so if that’s understood as true, then how come SWTOR doesn’t have more people on board? It’s kind of strange that something so massive and popular only got 2.4 million boxes sold (still respectable number especially for a subscription based MMO) and now it’s down to 1.3 million subscribers after only 4+ months? All things being considered within the MMO genre and market, people are sure to leave after so long anyway, I get that. Heck, some people probably had no idea what to expect and bought it on the IP alone (and don’t hink EA and Bioware didn’t bank on that). It’s just odd that such a huge IP isn’t doing so hot when most people would think it’s a slam dunk money maker. I mean the IP has been around since before I was born and probably many of the current subscribers. According to the WoW wiki page, Warcraft came out in 94, and WoW in 04. And as popular as those games were and are, they’re years older than SWTOR.The fact is WoW has more going for it than SWTOR does, and it just seems weird to release a game with less features than a game (WoW) that’s now what, almost 8 years old? By virtue of the Star Wars license alone, I think people are hanging in there and good on them for being loyal but it doesn’t make sense to say “It’s only 4 months old! Give them more time!” when the damn thing is a step backwards in in-game features compared to such an older game.
  I guess what I’m saying is, if you’re going to make a game that seems to play identical to every other mmo out there, you need to have what every other mmo out there has in terms of features that over the years developers have put together thru player feedback and trial and error. VO does not an MMO make and relying on the internet’s attention span to not slap around that space bar to skip the talky stuff is a gamble that does not seem to be paying off. Still too soon to tell for sure but we may know something by the summer if Bioware starts showing more signs of desperation (ie another “loyalty” bonus month or pet or whatever crap they can come up with).
  Thanks for replying!
  DISCLAIMER:
  This rant was not directed at anyone in particular. Just observations, not flaming anyone.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jonathan-Reyna/1830988318 Jonathan Reyna

Eve Online has never lost subscribers the population has always gone up for 9 consecutive years.

Kicknpups

I think the so called 1.4mill is BS I cancelled my sub two months ago I checked my account today and some how still have 19 days..I was never charged and last I knew ran out..I think EA/Bioware aren’t including all the free game time they gave to people for 1.2 being so bad.. My fiance also has free game time and she ran out the same time as myself..So now we both miraculously have game time??? I think the the number is a lot higher then 25% and Yes “its the most successful” game of it’s launch to overall game time. Yet people have also forgot this is 2012 not 2001 almost every home has 2-3 computer/laptops on avg and online gaming is a lot bigger today then it was 10 years ago when trying to compare it competitors you can’t..SWOTR is a good game for the free 30 days you get with the game but after that there is nothing to do…Raids are boring..PvP has gone to crap since 1.2…Class in-balance. Server population is laughable..As one of my friends stated “It was the best Single player MMO ever made” lol..If its your piece of pie then enjoy it..Yet for me after playing G2 I felt a new fresh feeling and can’t wait for release date…

samhainous

Regarding the whole color matching thing and the SWTOR devs not wanting to break immersion. What really breaks immersion for me is how everything looks like shiny plastic, so having a guild running around in pink garments and armor shouldn’t be a big deal at all.

German Lopez

Larry’s number for World of Warcraft is wrong. WOW grew at an insane rate from launch until 2008. It started plateauing off a bit after that. Google it.

The subscription-based MMOs with long-term success don’t typically lose subs for a long time. EVE has been steadily growing since launch, and Everquest and DAOC were growing for a long time as well. WOW obviously grew up until last year.

I think the problem is that almost no one sticks around a MMORPG for story. People might initially buy the game for it, but no one sticks around for it. And without the story, SWTOR does feel like a WOW with less content and features. It used to have Ilum and incredible class balance, but as the panel has pointed out, it doesn’t have either of those things anymore.

Also, it’s important to keep in mind that SWTOR is seeing this massive loss despite no new competition, the free month Bioware gave everyone with the launch of 1.2, and relatively new trial programs. With way more competition and the end of free months and trials in the next quarter, I can only see subscriptions dropping more. It’s a shame, but it is what it is.

Hicks64

Fan question for next show: When will it be okay for EA/Bioware to allow server transfers/mergers without losing investor confidence?

H S

This report was all pointed at them. They unhitched themselves from SWTOR:

”We no longer see SWTOR as one of our top 5 games”
They then files with the SEC about restructring which began on monday, stating layoffs and downsizing.
Then they stated that the f2p market is their target for “ALL” of their games.
They also stated about their repurchasing program(stock buyback) was almost complete.

So in other words, they are saying, what we did the last year is all behind us now, and we are looking to move in a totally new direction, and SWTOR isn’t part of that plan.

http://profile.yahoo.com/Q2CK4FW6T2AW2HUMBCUSKIAPWY chopsuey

Is the situation worse than expected? Cowen and Company was expecting ~1.25 million subscribers by the end of the current fiscal year in March 2013.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Johnson/1353890372 Michael Johnson

SWTOR has lost a total of 1.1 million subs in the past 5 month

It’s dying

http://www.facebook.com/Seabasscooper Sebastian Cooper

It isn’t dying….

It’s losing people due to lack of massive content, and the people on low populated servers.

They need to merge the servers, and not take 4 months in between major patches.
- samhainous
  
  “It isn’t dying….
  It’s losing people due to lack of massive content, and the people on low populated servers.They need to merge the servers, and not take 4 months in between major patches.”
  
  I’m confused. You say it isn’t dying, and then give several examples of why it’s losing people?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ronny-Sunrock/100002737688676 Ronny Sunrock

If this games go F2P I will quit playing it.

kyle robinson

So you rather it keep a sub fee and have the player base drop to 250k by christmas or let it go f2p and keep the player base at 1M…..
H S

Maybe you aren’t up on current events, but EA reported last night that all of their games will be in that format soon. You might want to get used to it or find a new hobby, because micro transactions are here to stay for quite some time.
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7UCDEUKEHKZZCEGBRAQAKTOFOY The Undeniable Truth

F2P is the future.

TacoBaal

Didn’t they say subs weren’t even dropping awhile back?

kyle robinson

I’m telling you this game is mimicing DCUO to a T. Everyting that is happening to SWTOR happened to DCUO but at least DCUO was a better game quality wise it was just the bugs and fanboys that kept defending the bug that led to its demise. Swtor is just lacking Quality. Really if this is the best they could do with 300M its just sad. KOTOR series is way better than swtor and didn’t cost nearly as much to make.
H S

Two week ago, Erikson said that. So either he was lying or his boss was lying to him. If I were a betting man, I would bet the ranch it was someone from EA. Sounds like EA is setting him up to be thrown under the bus soon. So maybe they want him to look like a liar.
- http://twitter.com/lifensoul Steven Whiting
  
  More than likely the higher up bosses told him NOT to tell the player base. And wanting to keep his job he had to byte his lip and lie. Seen it many a time in companies and it’s annoying.

http://twitter.com/akaleonvdm Leon van der Merwe

Jesus patch took too long…DON’T RUSH UR GAMES DEVELOPERS!!! Well, don’t know about everyone else, but I stopped playing in wait for 1.2 patch, but then just lost interest by the time it released.

http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

I think they nailed it – Its about the future and what Bioware will be doing to maintain the game for long term. EA has been known for cutting all their MMOs after first 6 months so ppl are not to optimistic.

Jado Cast

They could learn a lot from Trion.

http://www.facebook.com/davidallmighty David Cohen

About more casual people leaving and not hardcore people… I would say the opposite is true…. They lost so many hardcore raiders with the bugs…. NiM mode was almost useless in Tier 1 and Tier 2 is FOUR bosses…. And do I even have to talk about their dropping of the Hut Ball in PVP (pun.. you like it) With that said 1.3 is not horrible, but it IS when you have em spread out so thin on so many servers….

http://twitter.com/Deadalon Deadalon

The game is not sub based friendly. For alts… even worse than anything around cause the companion system is horrendous while leveling. Its ok to have one character to “dress up” – but have 5or 6 ? For multiple characters ? No thank you.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Shawna-Daniels/1135007726 Shawna Daniels

It’s quite obvious to anyone with any intelligence that more than ’4 out of 17′ people have stopped playing this game. 1.3 million is a completely fabricated number.
I’m also very tired with the comparisons to WoW. It doesn’t matter what WoW had after 4 months, this is a different game in a different time. WoW was also a quality product, SWTOR isn’t in any way. Quality products bring in consumers. Even the most diehard star wars fan would be hardpressed to truly believe SWTOR is a good MMO.

edit: GO GW2!!!! /sigh waiting for next BWE

Damir Miric

Tnx for saying that I totaly agree theres no fing way they have 1.3 M subs. Its a same kind of lie they told when some guy estimated that subs dropped and they said no no we have more then ever. Also yeah this game in comparison to wow is very bad and it came like 7 years after. So yeah GW2 is what game these days should look and feel like not swtor. It looks like something you should be playing on a toster but you cant play it on high end machines.

They cant balance the classes cant make people interested in playing, wont merge servers and are pretending everything is fine. Overall very bad mmo experience you can tolerate game for 1 month and then 1 more month in pvp to get to BM and then you just have to quit if you are remotely sane esp if you are on low pop server.

http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

Larry you need to look into your statement about WoWs first year numbers. The charts I’m looking at show 1.5 million WoW sub at 4 months and 6 million WoW subs by the end of the first full year.

Larry are you trying to compare the modern day digital download sales to initial WoW box sales back in the day? Are you talking about the early first few days/months of WoW?

Maybe this excerpt from an article will give flavor to WoW first days/months.

“The game has also apparently broken initial concurrency and account creation records for a MMORPG, with 200,000 players creating an account on the first day and over 100,000 users playing concurrently by 5pm, PST on the first day.The original 40 servers were filled to capacity within a single day, with 40 more being brought online to meet demand. Over the Thanksgiving weekend, over 350,000 additional copies of the game were sold, with supply expected to run out before Christmas. Further copies are not expected to be shipped until new servers can be brought online to support them.”

German Lopez

Yeah, all the charts show that WOW was rapidly growing as soon as it launched, and it had 200,000 to 300,000 more subscribers four months in than SWTOR. Larry was wrong.
H S

Comparing yourself to a game that launched when 56k modem was the standard internet connection is actually sad not funny.
http://twitter.com/DaveyDiablo Davey Diablo

Let’s be honest, Larry lacks the expertise to be on this show. His comments are often completely wrong and his role as RP-host is worthless given the nature of TOR.
And poor Justin. He’s put in so much effort into learning everything about SWTOR over the past 3+ years (like many of us fans did) and you can tell he knows it’s a stinker.
Justin, I feel your pain.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000979667979 Matthew Simonton

HM EC is the most fun ive had in a raid since ulduar. its fun, challengeing, and just difficult enough.

http://www.facebook.com/davidallmighty David Cohen

People aren’t using fansites cause there are less people playing the game!!! OMG sometimes Larry is such a fanboy it sickens me. Nothing except the whole game shutting down will ever come off as a negative to this man.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Bill-Lia/57201115 Bill Lia

Your point?

MMO_Doubter

“Quit the show, right now.”

Yes. Might as well. Read the handwriting.

MMO_Doubter

MMO players are not settling for sub-standard IP-coated garbage, anymore.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000979667979 Matthew Simonton

the game is good, you are bad, the end.
- Lycronis
  
  No, the game is not “good” by a long shot, it’s average at best. Bioware screwed the pooch on a wonderful opportunity to capitalize on the most recognized IP on the planet. Yet, what did they do? An average attempt at a WoW (vanilla WoW at that) clone, the only real addition being the subscription-time wasting cut scenes/stories and full voice-overs (well, for a few of the world NPCs at least). Hell, even the racial choices are pathetic (again, they took the easy route by making every race basically “human”.) Not one true alien race is available, and we are talking the Star Wars universe here, the possibilities are endless for different alien choices. Hell, even Star Trek Online offers alien races that at least look more alien than human, not to mention that it allows you to create your own alien race from scratch. With the budget, time and development team Bioware had, they could have really made something special. Instead they chose the easy route and relied solely on the Star Wars name to get initial sales. And now we are seeing how that has worked out for them.
Lycronis

For once, I agree with you!
- MMO_Doubter
  
  We agreed on something , before. I don’t remember what it was, though.
- Jado Cast
  
  You now have Troll aggro lol

http://twitter.com/holyhatred holyhatred

All MMOs see a decline in the first 4 months? WTH are these hosts smoking? lol That is just blatantly false.

MMO_Doubter

What are they smoking? They are smoking the ‘we don’t want the show we are paid to host cancelled’ weed.

Rather disappointing from Ed, in particular.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000979667979 Matthew Simonton
  
  your posting name shows your cowardice. you doubt mmo’s i doubt your intelligence, shall we agree to disagree?

H S

Did you catch larry’s smirk after he said “Swtor is doing better than any mmo at four months”?

LOL, nice PT Barnum impression there Larry, the show must go on huh?

MMO_Doubter

Quite.

Money talks, and it usually lies.

MMO_Doubter

Warhammer Online had SOME gear that was ‘broken’ and when a character had it repaired, it morphed into a USABLE item for that character. So, it can be done.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Mueller/100000004327864 Jason Mueller

Rose colored glasses anyone? WoW had a much launch then what SWTOR had. There were a lot of servers that were not playable for the first month, and even on the servers that were considered stable still crashed daily. Also there was a decline in WoW subs it is first 6 months of life because of all its problems. WoW did take off a lot after its first year, but it did have it hard times when it was first out.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Johnson/1353890372 Michael Johnson

First of all you’re a liar. WoW didn’t dip, it stabilized and then rose again. And even if it DID dip in subs, it sure as fucked didn’t lose half their subs like SWTOR did (SWTOR sold 2.4 million copies)

Secondly, the MMO market was a hell of a lot different than it is now. When someone quit WoW in 2004, they only had one other option. If someone quits SWTOR they have HUNDREDS of options.

Lastly, I predicted that SWTOR would have 1.3 million by the end of April. Of course it’s probably a hell of a lot less because of the free month. And I’m going on record that SWTOR will, without a doubt have sub-million subs by the end of the year, and will probably be 600k if every other MMO is bad. 300k if EA doesn’t merge servers in the next 3 months.

100k if they keep breaking the game.
- http://www.facebook.com/people/Bill-Lia/57201115 Bill Lia
  
  If there are “HUNDREDS” of more options now then it seems to make sense that SWTOR would loose more subscribers then WoW did. Do you really think that people would have toughed it out in WoW if they had as many options as they do now?
  
  To many people compare WoW at launch in 2004 to SWTOR launch now. The landscape is completely different. WoW was a popular IP in a time when MMO was niche and there wasn’t really a lot of options in the MMO space. WoW brought MMO’s into the main stream and into popular culture. I mean my grand mother knows what WoW is. SWTOR is a popular IP that released against a game with a world wide subscriber base of 10 Million. It also released into a MMO space full of competition like Rift, Eve, EQ 2, DCUO, Lotro, Aion, Conan, etc. Not to mention the games coming out like GW2, MoP, Planetside 2, etc. With as many options that there are now (especially those with no sub fee) I would think 1.2 Million would be a respectable number. Why does it have to be “1 MMO to rule them all”?
  
  Also just a question. Does anyone know the specific numbers for WoW by region? Meaning what are the different subscriber numbers for U.S, EU, Asia, etc. I have been searching and havent found an answer.
  - snikendelarveføtter
    
    From what i’ve read, wow has half of their subscribers in Asia, and the rest spread on EU/US.
http://twitter.com/ragehavoc Richard

wow as launched 10 years ago, stop comparing a games launch to one that happened 10 years ago. if you think a game being released just like a game released 10 years ago is a good thing you ened your head examined because people dont want to play a game equal to that of one released 10 years ago.

Selona83

Hm…
I also get that whole “Defend” feeling here. As many of you guys said.
How about some objectivity among the hosts? (except Gary thats show leader)

Yes. Many mmo:s will have a decline in their subscribers after some month.
But those games havent really picked up either. But have continued to drop. And many of em ending up in F2P
(wow being the only exception that proves the rule I guess)

Cheers!

http://twitter.com/Camzillasmom Wimpi

Ed really has a point there. They should introduce 7/14 days trial. Maybe some people would like it and keep playing it? I mean, the storyline is awesome. But then they probably stick to it for another 1-3 months with high hopes that end content and/or pvp will change/be more fun. Who knows. Maybe Bioware gets a grip after all…

MMO_Doubter

Yes. It is a good idea.

I have been saying for some time now, that if an MMO ever releases with a free client and sub fee – THAT will be proof that the devs know they have a quality game, because they won’t be going to the box sales and CEs to suckers strategy.

F2P is garbage, and anyone with experience with how such a game is designed to ‘encourage’ RMTs knows it very well.

QSatu

I expect to see the end number to be something like 800k at the end of the year. Unless all other mmos will be very bad.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000522850458 Michael MyRick McGee

My prediction is there will be a huge number of people drop off of WoW because of MoP expansion and GW2 will turn out to not be the best MMO in history. Those players could potentially add onto the TOR player-base. That’s my prediction but i won’t bet any money on it.
- http://twitter.com/ragehavoc Richard
  
  i would not either as contrary to your belief mop is actually something most wow players want, i think the number was around 82%, gw2 isn;t trying to be the best mmo in history, acording to BW fans SWTOR somehow is. you are also forgeting about diablo 3, terra, etc etc. swtor has too much competition.
  - http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Lazarowitz/100000420795554 Steve Lazarowitz
    
    Having played the Guild Wars 2 demo, I don’t think I can say whether or not it’s the best MMO in history. It’s an MMO, however that’s taking a different route that most other MMOs. I mean ToR obviously copied WoW’s design for the MMO bit, in spite of having a lovely Bioware storyline.
    
    Guild Wars 2 goes its own way. Some people are going to love that and some people are going to hate it. Many won’t even give it a chance, because it IS different. Personally, any game that makes exploring more rewarding and fun is my type of game. Guild Wars 2 does that, instead of leading you around by the nose.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Doyle-Hargrave/1182733324 Doyle Hargrave

Is there anyone from bioware who doesnt lie lol? Hey daniel i demand a free rancor pet and another free month!

They better quit screwing around and get this pvp going before gw2 comes out. Thiers no way in hell tors pvp is gonna compete with gw2 pvp.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-White/100002014476231 Michael White

This show is turning into the general forums. Seems like none of you really want to be here. And ed doesnt talk anymore and he was one of the few worth actually listening too.

http://twitter.com/CosmicGamer Tarabelle

This is the vibe I’ve been getting through the last few shows as well … I thought it was just me.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Osmer/100002680014995 Joshua Osmer

Here’s the thing…I’m still playing the game…I like a lot of it, I hate some of it. After playing 7 years of WoW, having come over from SWG preNGE, I’m glad for the change and glad there’s a SW MMO to play. That being said, the subscriptions are misleading. People may still be sub’ed but they’re not playing. My server, Exar Kun, is dead. 50 people on the Imp Fleet at peak hours, 20 on Pub fleet. They need to do some mergers or open transfers, it’s ridiculous waiting 20+ minutes for a WZ queue only to get into a losing one someone abandoned. Not to mention, by the time they release rated’s they’re going to have to add more rewards…everyone’s closing in on full war hero gear already…

http://www.facebook.com/people/Ryan-Hamilton/1150725720 Ryan Hamilton

Soon: Copyright 2004-2012 Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. All rights
reserved. “Soon” does not imply any particular date, time, decade,
century, or millennia in the past, present, and certainly not the
future. “Soon” shall make no contract or warranty between Blizzard Entertainment
and the end user. “Soon” will arrive some day, Blizzard does guarantee
that “soon” will be here before the end of time. Maybe. Do not make
plans based on “soon” as Blizzard will not be liable for any misuse,
use, or even casual glancing at “soon.”

Bioware: needed a new word. “Someday” is that word?

http://www.facebook.com/djlanders020 Dave Landers

If Bioware were to micro-transact funky colored skins for lightsabers, they would make eleventy billion dollars. More sparkly lightsabers!

Mr. Ares

Been a while since I stopped watching this show, but just watching the start of this episode I still get the same feeling of “we need to rationalize our existence”. There’s just nothing interesting about one-sided predictable discussions. You should get someone on the show that’s just as much invested in the game, but who actually challenges some of the stuff being said.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000522850458 Michael MyRick McGee

This is totally natural and expected
. It happens to every MMO because people get hyped and then quit
. now the game should be going up slowly and steadily and hit a stopping point until Bioware does something to truly bring in the numbers and truly compete with WoW
.

http://twitter.com/ragehavoc Richard

it has not finished going down the standard mmo sheds at least 50% of all subs on average.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000522850458 Michael MyRick McGee
  
  SWTOR is not just the standard MMO. It has added a lot more MMO players with it being the first MMO they might have even heard of. And don’t trust the forums: they’re filled with trolls who want the game to die so they can go back to complaining about WoW or RIFT and eventually GW2
- InvaderMig
  
  There isn’t anything standard about losing half your player base in such a short amount of time. Remember, we’re going from 2.4 million copies sold to 1.3 million current subscribers. That 1.3 number includes everyone still active as a result of this free month as well. If not for that free month I would not have an active sub to Swtor, so the numbers are skewed even more. Not trying to hate on the game, because I love Star Wars, but after class reworks of 1.2 and lack of rank PvP, I don’t imagine coming back. Well I might once they extend the story, because I absolutely loved the Agent story, but aside from that, meh. I hope they can stabilize at about a million, so they can continue to be profitable enough to pump on content on a consistent basis, but I’m not very optimistic. I hope I’m wrong though.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Johnson/1353890372 Michael Johnson

It isn’t natural to lose 46% (from 2.4 million sales to 1.3 million subs) in the first 5 months
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000522850458 Michael MyRick McGee
  
  funny because WoW lost more than 50% within it’s first 5 months. Sure it wasn’t in the millions but it was close to 50%. I remember because i was there to see all that news and i worried that my favorite game might die out. But it didn’t and it became extremely popular.
  - Lycronis
    
    You must be on crack! WoW never lost subs by an substantial numbers during that time. You had better check your facts because you are WAY out of touch. The only news during that time was when was Blizz going to add more servers and fix Molten Core. Why can’t you SWTOR fans just agree with the truth instead of jumping on the EA/Bioware lie wagon? Stop making shit up!
  - German Lopez
    
    You might want to Google a chart with subscription numbers for WOW, Michael. WOW subscriptions went up at a completely insane rate until about 2008.
    
    SWTOR is probably the fastest dropping MMORPG in history, considering these numbers are despite the free month from 1.2, the lack of any new competition since launch, and the Australia release.
    - MichaelJBR
      
      I was thinking also,that SWTOR just might be the MMO thats loses subscribers at at over the record rate they had got them.Sorry Larry E.
http://twitter.com/winter_solace Jo

I really can’t see TOR coming close to WoW. I don’t think the game will completely fail to the point of server shutdown, but this game won’t be the next big thing. I am curious to know why you think subs will increase when the game doesn’t do much outside of story (which you could really just watch on youtube and avoid the game itself) to advance the genre. Add to that the fact that every new patch breaks something in the game, the god awful community, and the horrible alpha build engine they decided to go with which horribly limits what they can do with the game,.. I just really don’t see what they could possibly do with the game to “compete with WoW” unless they rebuilt it from the ground up.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000522850458 Michael MyRick McGee
  
  you must have hit a bad server then. the community on my server are a bunch of splendid people who all work together. I have played on 7 different WoW servers and all of them had a bunch of trolls and idiots not really caring what other people see. I’ve played WoW since the very first BETA Blizzard had for WoW and only recently quit because of TOR. And if you actually pay close attention and play the game SWTOR doesn’t just spend time on story. They spend time with endgame content and PvP. WoW didn’t even have 4 battlezones until BC. TOR has redefined PvP for myself making it so much more fun than WoW’s.
  
  Also there is a difference to actually playing your character and BEING that character rather than just looking it up on youtube. the point of the game is to connect yourself to your character’s. at least that’s the point of leveling up.
  
  Currently they are competing with WoW just by being an MMORPG. Like larry pointed out it has succeeded more than any other MMO in gaming history and i check to make sure that was true.
  
  WoW didn’t get to 10million players over night. It took them lots of time and planning. The only thing bad for TOR is that EA is in charge and EA could care less if it’s good or bad: as long as it gets money they’re happy and if it doesn’t get enough money they change things for the worse.
  - Mr. Ares
    
    But if you go back and look at a lot of the MMOs that are have been forgotten by now they were all breaking records, one after another. The thing is that the MMO consumerbase has grown dramatically the last 7 or so years, and it keeps growing. The fact that SwToR has bigger numbers than it’s predeccessors doesn’t mean it has a bigger slice of the pie, there’s just more pie to go around.
    
    That doesn’t mean it will crash and burn and fail miserably, but it’s pretty straight on the course of all these other MMOs we’ve seen before. Which means it’s pretty easy to predict where things will go from here. Hell, most of the MMOs have kept on going with a hardcore skeleton userbase, but it’s very unlikely we’ll see a second coming.
    
    The people that are really into it will keep on playing, and they will keep on getting served the content they enjoy untill there’s a new big Star Wars project (like what happened to SWG *chug*). But it’s chance at mainstream success has gone.

http://twitter.com/ragehavoc Richard

people always forget that they released in AUS recently so it wasn’t 1.7 mil to 1.3 mill it was more around 2mill down to 1.3 mill.
remember they released in apr with the 1.7 mill numbers then released the game in aus in march hoping it would increase their numbers or at least stabalize it, they even gave out another 30 days free and a 7 days free before this report to pad their numbers, yes they count 7 days as a whole month.
the game is doing far worse than many may think, i suspect their numbers are below 1 mill .

MichaelJBR

Larry,I’m really not trying to be mean but you need to stop your many pauses and stutters,it is really hard on the ears listening to you try to explain anything at length,and the blatant fanboy-ism is almost to a new level in this episode.I do feel for Justin and Ed,(who both speak very clearly and coherently always);they both seem to truly love their playstyles but are coming to grips that this game just won’t satisfy them in the long run.PVP was very good,it’s maddening why they tweaked it the way they did,no sense at all.I am a AAA Star Wars nerd,only that has kept me logging on at all,seeing as we plowed through the 1.2 raid content like a bulldozer on blue meth.Raiders such as myself are leaving due to lack of content,PVP’ers keep getting unnessecary tweaks,which will leave only the role-players.I may be the only one to admit this,but I actually WANTED WoW with lightsabers and laser blasters,I wanted stats,achievements,server/realm 1st’s for raids/titles,a normal-functioning AH,decent crafting,reputations,macros,a HEALTHY economy,in-game logs and threat meters.Knowing that a huge part of their base would be jumping from WoW,and with all advantages of today’s technology compared to 2004,there is no excuse any of the above was left out at launch;1.2 was more like an apology than a patch.This game was a rush job that’s banking on its precious Star Wars license to carry it,and true SW fans like my are still leaving.Another 12-18 months of development,and SWTOR would’ve had a much better chance.It’s sad to say,but I see only very dedicated RP’ers staying past a year.

http://www.facebook.com/oneniisama Bear Powell

If you look at WoW during the same period of time it was roughly the same amount of subscribers (SWTOR did climb faster), then it continued to climb and kept climbing until a bit over 4 years later. At that time it was over 12 million subscribers… SWTOR losing 25% this early does harken to more recent games like Warhammer Online and Aion (Aion gained subscribers in a similar way as SWTOR, but it didn’t drop rates till 6 months later.). That is not good company to be in, but it doesn’t mean the game is a failure. Does it mean SWTOR is finished? No, but I do think it means they need to work a lot harder at creating interesting content and finding ways for them to draw in new players. This does show SWTOR that their 15 year plan is not a constant to be working on at the moment.

http://twitter.com/CosmicGamer Tarabelle

It is quite clear that the free month was a bridge over the quarterly report. I shutter to think what those numbers would look like without it.

As an aside, maybe its time to start looking for some new panelists … love these guys, BUT they feel disconnected from the game at this point … not in knowledge, but in passion. Certainly understandable.

H S

I got more entertainment watching this show than playing the game. So to each his own.

How you can say the “panelists” are disconnected isn’t fair at all.
Larry was in full biofan mode and trying hard to see a silver lining on every dark cloud.
Justin is more mechanical minded, he doesn’t like to fluff things for the sake of fluff.
Ed is just a pvp guy who talks about the things pvp has to offer. Some of his suggestions have been pretty darn good. bEAware should have hired him instead of the mythic crew.

And last but not least, Garry is the anchor, he just asks the questions, not supposed to be a fan of the game he asks questions about.

Overall, I think the cast are above average, talking about a below average game. But that’s just one viewers opinion. I not only support these shows by viewing them even if its about games I currently don’t care for, but I also donate to help keep them going. Why? because they are entertaining, like my games are supposed to be.
- http://twitter.com/CosmicGamer Tarabelle
  
  As you stated, we are each entitled to our own opinion. Isn’t it great!

Ignore_me

Good show guys. I was bummed you put down on the bigger worlds (Hoth, Tat), but otherwise agree with your take on things.

http://profile.yahoo.com/2LCIYLFDZ6DH3IR2I7IY6ANQSU REMCO Estimating

Still Subbed.
Have not logged in Since March 22nd, When I got My beta Invite to Firefall.
Why?
Because, after 61/2 Years of WOW, I saw no reason to repeat the same type of game with different bells and whistles.
It’s time for game developers to stop creating games that please the moneylenders, and to go back to making games the way they Feel they should be made.
My heart goes out to all of the creative people that got their Ideas overruled by accountants.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1260066056 Steven Diaz

All the stuff the devs talk about developing just seems like stuff the game should have launched with. I understand that an MMO is ever-evolving but the stuff they claim they are working on adding is stuff that people wanted from the beginning, stuff that would have retained a lot more people. On average, once an MMO player leaves said MMO, they don’t usually come back- ever. I know this is the first Bioware has produced, but they have plenty of experienced developers AND plenty of other MMOs they could have looked at. Either way, I’m glad I’m no longer subscribed and hope that the next Star Wars MMO is handled much better and much more responsibly.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1260066056 Steven Diaz

Also, I’m kind of disappointed by Lary’s constant defending of blatantly odd or questionable decisions. I’m all for different opinions, but not when they are blindly stated without any real thought. It just seems like he’s looking for excuses to spin things in a positive light rather than staying with his feet on the ground.

The Republic: Down 25% -- The Star Wars: The Old Republic Show

Legendary Ep126:
Raiding Ra-Den Revelations!

GuildCast Ep70:
Blue Flowers

New Character Customization Features Come To SWTOR

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