“Gamers Are A-Holes”

The Not-Quite Guild Wars 2 Expansion

The Guild Wars 2  “expansion” will not be so expansion-like.

Welcome to another week of GuildCast the Guild Wars 2 show.  This week Colin Johanson sets players straight regarding their expectations of a Guild Wars 2 “expansion”.  A quote from Johanson states that:

“To set expectations accordingly, the January  release will be a relatively small release that sets the table for the stories and features we plan to roll out with the Feb/March releases and beyond. also, there will be no new race, profession, or new region with these larger Feb/March releases.”

So, while technically there may be enough content amount-wise to equal an expansion, the kind of content being released may not what players imagine when they think “Guild Wars 2 expansion.”

Culling may actually be removed from dub v dubs.

So while there won’t be a true Guild Wars 2 expansion any time soon, players might be happy to know that  engineering programmers are hard at work on the issue of culling in dub v dubs.  The team does believe they can do it and look forward to making the announcement that it’s been done.

More players are smacked by the ban-hammer for exploiting.

Really guys?  Really?  You didn’t learn the last time around that ArenaNet is serious about this whole “Do not exploit.” business?

Yes, we know… you didn’t know it was an exploit. It’s ArenaNet’s fault for letting it through. The problem here is that they don’t buy that. In fact, support Liason Gaile Gray had this to say about it:

“Any time you take one think and can make two, and then four, and then sixteen… Ya gotta know that’s just wrong. (I won’t quibble on the odds, but overall, that form of doubling was not outside the realm of possibility.) And to perform this action hundreds and hundreds of times?  That’s called ‘exploitation,’ and that’s against the user agreement, the rules of conduct, and all that is holy.”

All this, plus your viewer questions on this week’s episode.  And, if you happened to miss last week’s GuildCast, you can check it out here.

So… Join Gary Gannon, Richie “Bogotter” Procopio, Massively‘s Elisabeth Cardy and ZAM‘s Scott Hawkes for another expansive edition of GuildCast!

  • Dekin

    SCOTT!?

    <——–SCOTT Q.Q

    • ScottHawkes

       <—— Dekin

      • Dekin

        …Just want you to keep doing that voodoo you do so well…

        <————scott

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003985101205 Jose Luis Rodriguez Jr.

    gary is getting fat

    • Jado Cast

      Its probably from all the chicken and waffles you served him from Mary’s Counter.  O.o

  • http://twitter.com/Salamolign Salamol

    I’d much prefer the solution to this kind of exploit to be the rollback of an account. To me, a permenantly bannable exploit is flying or speedhacking, something that uses code exploiting “hacks.” It’s not as if it’s obscure in this case… it’s simply salvaging an item, then buying more materials and making it again – Things like that should be tested before release. Of course things will slip through the net… but permenantly banning players feels very harsh. I’m speaking as a player that had no knowledge of this happening until it became common knowledge.

    • http://www.facebook.com/dal.latee Dal Latee

      Rollbacks don’t work as a deterrent.  If that was the only risk a player had to worry about they’d be all too happy to exploit flaws in design, just on the off chance of getting away with it and profiting from the exploit.

      It’s pretty easy to play by the rules and avoid exploitation, and I have a difficult time believing players don’t recognize when they’re abusing an unintended design flaw or bug. We gamers know when we’re doing something wrong.  The only time surprise comes into the picture is when someone is shocked by the punishment linked to the exploit.

      Case in point, during the first day of the Halloween event many of the “Trick or Treat” doors were broken and generating an endless supply of mobs.  The very first door I came upon was broken in this way, and so I had no reference on how it was supposed to operate.  I thought I was participating in one of the Halloween events, and so I killed the mobs (with several other players) as they poured through the door, gathering tons of loot from the corpses. 

      It took about two minutes of this for me to question that something might be wrong here.  I gave the UI a closer look, tried another nearby door (which worked properly), and came to the logical conclusion that the first one was simply bugged.  Rather than continue to farm it, I simply walked away.

      The following day ArenaNet patched the bug and left it at that.  They didn’t penalize the people that farmed the broken doors for hours on end.  I would not have been surprised if they had, however, although I suspect many people would have.  Not because they didn’t realize they were abusing bugged content, but because they expect not to be penalized for abusing bugged content – despite the fact that it was made crystal clear from the start that abusing bugs is against the rules.  Too many players simply feel they are above such rulings, that it doesn’t apply to them, or that it doesn’t apply to minor offenses.

      Bannings let you know otherwise.

  • balen arenas

    a rollback and temp ban would probably be a better solution in my opinion. And then flag that account so any other similar action would be grounds for account termination.

    • http://twitter.com/elixabethclaire Elisabeth Claire

      I am guessing that their thinking is that if someone’s willing to exploit a bug, they’re probably going to be willing to do it twice. As we said, the likelihood that someone did this hundreds/thousands of times and just didn’t think at all that it might be a bad thing to be doing is probably pretty darn low — so it’s not like these people are just misguided. If someone’s deliberately exploiting the game, why would the company want to keep them around for a second shot at it? This is, again, what I assume their standpoint is — not necessarily my own.

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      I think rolling back the account a month and giving them a temp ban is probably harsh enough for a first offense.  I think strike perma bans are a bit rough.  But of course I’d rather them be too harsh then too light.  It’s a tough situation all around and you can argue blame on both sides.

    • Chris Holland

      Defining something as an exploit resulting in a ban should be limited to those things which clearly are un-intended and result from coding error, or some other loophole where you’re causing bad things in the systems to break. Like a full on dup bug, as a result of some crazy login/drop/trade procedure.

      Something that allows you to sell on the market system at a profit really isn’t a true exploit in my book. They just f-ed up the recipe input and output. The market system will move to accommodate. Early actors will get some money but it can’t destroy the economy. Granted I’m not exactly sure what the exploit was, but from what I’ve heard something was just generating the wrong mats on destruction.

    • Jado Cast

      I think they should have done a rollback, take take all their gold, and items above rare, and then put a Snow Flake Buff above their head for a year so they walk around in shame and everyone will know what they did.  

  • Torguish

    As for GW2 upgrades i seriously need the animations and things like that get updated. I mean, standing next to the cannons or tanks while firing them is just something a 2012 game be over.

    Some instances and Boss battles are just plain annoying rather than fun. The mechanics are broken are just dull (like the laser shooting in CoE).

    • http://twitter.com/inkthedink INKS

      I don’t disagree with some of the bosses and mechanics needing love. But what is it that you want your character to do when firing a cannon? Just curious as I can’t think what else I should be doing….pulling a string?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1653322492 Kevin J. Redmond

        I agree.  You generally have to stand beside a cannon when firing it.  Makes perfect sense to me.

        • Torguish

          Yeah. Or stand beside a dragon. :D

          I mean in WvW it would be pretty cool if players would get some aniamtion like PUSHING the ram into the door, instead of just telekinetically moving it. :P

      • Torguish

        With this i mean a game made in the 2012 should have animation where the character itself it interacting with the cannon. I’m talking about animations. I know it’s not that big of a deal but i’m a nitpicker when i comes to a game this caliber.

        I mean pretty much every single other MMO out there has these animation and while GW2 should be the revolutionary MMORPG it has the animations of a broken game when it comes to some things. At least i think this needs to be addressed.

        When doing the Zhaitan boss, i was a little ”meh” also because the cannons were uber lame which made the boss where you shoot the dragon for 5 minutes even more lame. Things like these animations have a huge impact on immersion for me.. :|

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1653322492 Kevin J. Redmond

    They said an expansion’s-worth of content, but nobody ever said what sort of content that would be.  There is no rule book that says every expansion has to have a new race, a new continent, and all the trappings within.  Rift’s new expac didn’t have a new race, did it?  I don’t think this is an issue of how people read comments, as easy as it might be to blame people sometimes.  I think it’s just an issue of preconception and what the overwhelming majority of MMO gamers expect in an expansion, largely because that’s how WoW did it every time…

    I think the developer excitement can also be part of the issue, because it leads to hype which leads to over-inflated expectations which leads to disappointment.  (Did I just hear that in a Yoda voice?)  I think they should be more realistic and more specific.  Expansion worth of content… okay, according to whom?  What expansion are you referring to, because they aren’t all the same size.  Is there a company you are referencing, or just your own opinion?  How much content is there in an expansion? 

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      Sadly, I never played AC, so I wasn’t aware of the frequency of their content updates.  It’s still a pretty rare thing to see a triple A MMO deliver content monthly.

      • http://twitter.com/Agimat08 Solo Miranda

        Rift says Hi

        • Jado Cast

          RIFT doesn’t put out content Monthly.

  • Laborday

    Slightly confused here by Richie P’s comments; why wouldn’t players of a modern MMO expect content monthly at the least? 

    Also plenty of other MMOs do, “do that” in contrast to the comment of; “…nobody does that!”

    I don;t see anything praise worthy of Guild Wars 2′s content patches vis a vis other MMO on the current market. Even among older games.

    • http://twitter.com/inkthedink INKS

      Besides rift who does this? Wow certainly doesn’t. I assume Richie was referencing AAA MMOs in general.

      I have to assume that you aren’t playing GW2 to not be able to admit that their patches while certainly not perfect are on par or better than many MMOs on the market. (this all comes down to opinion) It’s hard to imagine that players or even critics to the game can’t find “anything” praise worthy in those patches.

    • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

      What other AAA MMO is putting out content every single month?  There may be some, but none that I’ve played.  So I was speaking from personal experience.  WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, EQ, GW1……are the main MMOs I’ve spent the most time playing and in some cases you’d go 6 months + without seeing new content. Even Rift, which is regarded as one of the most agile development cycles doesn’t release content every  month.  

      I think the amount of new things we’ve seen in GW2 as a result of their monthly updates go beyond what I’ve experienced in other MMOs.  

      • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

        Huh, you made a declarative statement that no MMO puts out monthly content and you now want to couch it as based on personal experience. 

        While I haven’t played much Rift after it’s launch, it does seem to put out alot of content. Rift1.0- Planes of Telara - February 24, 20111.1- River of Souls - March 30, 20111.2- Spoils of War - May 10, 20111.3- Waves of Madness - June 22, 20111.4- Legacy of the Fallen - August 3, 20111.5- Ashes of History - September 28, 20111.6- From the Embers November 16, 20111.7- Carnival of the Ascended - February 2, 20121.8 – Infernal Dawn - April 18, 20121.9 – Conquest - June 27, 20121.10 – Calm Before the Storm - September 12, 20121.11 – Tempest Rising - October 17, 2012ExpansionStorm Legion - November 13, 2012

        • Jado Cast

          Rift puts out content really fast which is great, but it’s still not monthly.  So Richie’s comment is correct as far as I know as well.  What other MMO puts out content on a monthly basis?  Personally, I don’t even think GW2 can keep up this pace, even if the content releases become smaller over time.  

        • http://twitter.com/RichieProcopio Richie Procopio

          Yep, as I said, Rift has a very agile development cycle, but it’s not monthly.  

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robby-Long/813407588 Robby Long

             like i said, city of heroes did the monthly content. They did it very well even when their team was small and staff was moved to other projects “guild wars 2″

            In fact i’m certain that the only people who were on the team till the  very end did customer service and content updates.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/ADEN6X6TYCORSSGEHKWMBIHDHY Eclipse

             Possibly, but you’re still going off of a 5 month old game. There was no new content released in September…

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robby-Long/813407588 Robby Long

        When city of heroes went F2P there was new monthly content, called signature story arcs, sometimes including new power sets and always a ton of costume skins. During COHs entire lifespan there were FREE seasonal mini expansions, called issues, that not only brought these things but sometimes huge game changes to the MMO table like

        Free new zones with new enemy factions (and new enemy models) like the roman themed Cimerorans..

        One of the coolest free expansions was done when they introduced the incarnate system, which also included 12-24 person league raid “dungeons” to support the new content. I don’t have time to give you a history lesson, but COH was one of the few that did so much right by the player.

        The Artifact Entertainment System. This allowed players to create their own missions limited
        only by imagination and share them on the public database. A few other
        MMOs copied the A..E design, Neverwinter MMO will be using this design
        (COH and Neverwinter devd by cryptic.)

        The team behind city of heroes content was amazing, probably the best experience i have had with an MMO because of how well they listened to the community and actually gave them the content and tweaks that were in demand.

  • Sklys

    Good show, you say a lot.
    1. If you exploited or go looking for something to exploit then you are the same as a hacker.
        A lot of folks do this becasue it is there game vice playing a game. Good for A-Net for the
        banned. Good for Gary saying they are A- Holes.
    2. Concur with you folks on the vets/champs drops or chest. I (with 4 others ) took down the
         champ Karka but why do this if you can sneak in and get the rich orich ore.  I would think
         it would be more fun to boot.
    3. omg OMG I have it on good word, that all quapys (the baby for sure) are now going to
        used for shark bait. Sorry Liz  Bahahaha :P

    • http://twitter.com/elixabethclaire Elisabeth Claire

      ;.;

      • Sklys

        OPPS !

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=775079997 Travis Lobsinger

    Not all of Everquests expansions were dungeons/maps and races. A lot of them introduced new mechanics, or even expanded on the crafting and other existing areas in the game. This could be where Anet is planning on heading. I would love it if crafting was more a crucial part of the game. 

  • Damian Fatz

    Elisabeth is sooo cute

  • Snoover

    Really nice show! Keep up the good work!

  • theunwarshed

    while they have a blanket policy towards exploiting (to cover their asses) i believe the determining factor for perma bans comes down to how badly the exploiting potentially and or actually damages the game.  i’m not sure what actual damage was done to the economy, but the potential damage is certainly something to heavily weigh in determining a just punishment.  the other issue here is what type of message does AN want to send to players monkeying around with the game’s economy (and their real source of income).  i think we can all now assume that AN won’t be messing around with anything having to do with the economics of the game and will respond with draconian action.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Caliolo/100003765889295 Robert Caliolo

    Could you see RIFT like Dimensions in GW2 in the future?

    “Karka Island” needs it’s own specific dungeon and entrance with no waypoint . Have to run to it from an existing waypoint on the island

  • http://twitter.com/Cromica1 Cromica

    So sounds to me like 
    More story (already so bad I can’t continue)
    More DEs in randoms zones. (Yay more karma with nothing to use it on)
    Spvp additions ( I don’t care about this but I hope they make it enjoyable for others)
    WvW additions ( as long as it remains Zerg vs Zerg there is no point and I don’t see a way to change it.)

    We need IMO
    More weapons/weapon skills.
    More traits
    A reason to do events besides karma ( events are fun the first couple of times but after that its same old same old with worthless rewards.)
    Better crafting ( Cooking is the only craft that is worth anything at max lvl)
    More diverse looking weapons and armor ( sick of seeing everyone in the same gear)
    I am sure that Anet will save the good stuff for an actual expansion, at least that would be the smart thing to do to get people to buy it. However if they could give us a taste of some of the things we ask for and if done right then expansion sales are almost guaranteed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jj.morris.56 Jj Morris

    I kind of wish I had jewlcrafting to at least help a lil with crafting my Orichalium armor :( that ecto killed my gold and gems :(

  • Razor4884

    I know one guy who was REALLY smart. He knew it was an exploit, and that it would be considered wrong later on. So, rather than take advantage of the system (the exploit), he took advantage of the exploiters. Basically, he crafted the heck out of those snowflakes, and — because their demand was so high on the TP — simply sold them all for 3-4 times their worth. He didn’t “exploit,” but he still made over a triple profit.

  • ADN Censors Opposition

    Best thing to do with GW2 is basically not play it much at all…  Those black lion salvage kits Anet got money for correct?  That means people paid to get what they got.  Then got banned for paying for that privilege.   I dont play the game much, its mostly a time waster as I have ZERO desire to touch exotics or legendarily.  And I focus mostly on PvE questing and skill build development which is essentially nonexistent in GW2 as opposed to the original Guild Wars.  So mostly GW2 is a novelty till they add Guild Halls to progressively upgrade and make more interesting, OR add new territories in an expansion.  Short of that I may log in for a few hours a month to mess around with a low be or do a dungeon on my 80 but beyond that GW2 is a true disappointment compared the original.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=775079997 Travis Lobsinger

      You can get BL salvage kits from RNG when you complete a zone map, or from opening chests, which granted are opened by buying keys with gems, unless you get lucky on the RNG drop for them. But they do exist in game for free.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jonathan.hornsby.7 Jonathan Hornsby

        And are also unneeded. I’ve gotten rare drops conisistantly with the kits bought with silver. People keep finding reasons to complain about the stuff in the gem store, and all the while refusing to even acknowlege the fact that YOU DO NOT NEED ANY OF THOSE ITEMS FOR ANYTHING. 

  • Eggers

    No instance /dungeons finder!  They are evil!!

  • http://twitter.com/Dashrider Graham Sadler

    guild haaaaaalllllls.

  • Greed_E

    What about the people who were banned after an Anet employee told them ‘Get it while it’s hot”?  They posted screenshots of it on the official forums. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/TeLOVEsC Matei Ovidiu

    we need some new thinks after lvl 80 ore some think like subclasses ,etc etc new rase :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/rohan.jacobs.5 Rohan Jacobs

    There has been another exploit lately. People seem to have found a way to double jump up walls in WvW…

  • Jado Cast

    If you walk up to an ATM machine to withdraw money.  You have a $1,000 in your account, and you withdraw $200, but the machine spits out  $2,000 by mistake.  You check  your account, and it says you have $800.  Is it the fault of the bank so you should keep the $2000?  Or do you do it again hoping it makes the same mistake?  Or do you walk into the bank and say, hey your machine game me too much money?  

    The whole argument that Anet let the snowflake exploit through testing and its their fault doesn’t mean using the exploit is okay.  We all know it was wrong and that’s a lousy excuse.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/APHJB3QZIDC34QYRLE2RAUSLMU TJ

      According to the law if you dont report it to the bank you are in fact liable for the money. But the fact is that this isnt the real world and bugs like this are hard to blame the player for.

      • Jado Cast

        Sure its the real world.  Its people exploiting the game wrecking an economy that will negatively affect 100′s of thousands of people playing the game, regardless if its a bug.  Its wrong, they knew it, and Yes I can blame them.  

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=706513777 Luis A. Perez

        I agree. Because the bank will have tested their systems EXTENSIVELY. Anet messed up here and now they have to guess player’s motivations. Kinda tells mid-maxers to not bother with this game.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=706513777 Luis A. Perez

      What if I have $12,567.98 cents in my bank account and maybe pull out $20 at least once a day. Maybe 2x a day. I really don’t look at the starting balance when I get to the ATM or after I pull or get a receipt because I love me some trees. I’ll check my balance via the banks website and all seems ok. But you never noticed that the bank didn’t deduct from your account. What happens then?

      • Jado Cast

        Any lawyer will tell you that ignorance is never a valid excuse for breaking the law.  That being said, if the bank doesn’t catch it, then nothing happens.  Applying this to the exploiters in GW2, then I would say your not exploiting if you happen to salvage the recipe and get the items not realizing you found something that can make you very rich in game.  I don’t think Anet would do anything to someone who just did it once or a couple of times and benefited by accident.  

        • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

          Oh I like this analogy.  The bank makes a mistake and you take advantage of the mistake.  The bank bans you from the country, so you have to create a new identity and sneak back in or move to a different country. 

          • Jado Cast

            Works for me!

  • Frank Crook

    Regarding your comment on: “Hot coffee spilled in my lap, I’m going to sue you because it’s too hot.”

    I’m guessing you’re talking about Liebeck v. McDonalds, and you’re probably misinformed if you think that lawsuit was silly.

    1) McDonalds had internal memos acknowledging the temperature of the coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns, but that the excessive temperature discouraged the use of free refills, and therefore saved money.

    2) Stella Liebeck suffered third degree burns in her pelvic region, was hospitalized for over a week, and required skin grafts. She only sought compensation for her medical costs, but the court granted $2.7 million in punitive damages because it represented a single day of coffee profits for the company.

    • DoctorOverlord

      It is too bad that particular case ended up being the poster child for frivolous lawsuits when the person actually was legitimately injured because of negligence on the part of a corporation.    As so often happens, cultural lore has mis-cast that and now it’s always used as a reference of silly lawsuits while other ones get forgotten.  

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/7MPGC5FCQJZGFKICKCMALR3AYY Eric

    fixing culling will be great for siege weapons too. it kinda sucks being on a cata or treb and needing a spotter on the ground telling you where to hit. 

    • http://twitter.com/elixabethclaire Elisabeth Claire

      Agreed.

  • DoctorOverlord

    Good to head the clarifications on expansion.  I didn’t know we were going to get more details soon, thanks for pointing that out Richie.

    And good job everyone calling out that idiot who ‘guaranteed’ more than 200 people had gotten banned because his 7 moronic guildies thought they could get away with an exploit.   He must either be using psychic powers or he hacked into the ArenaNet database.   

    It’s impossible to confront every troll who posts, but it is very cool to see specifics cases publicly raked over the coals every now and then.   

  • http://twitter.com/thavleifrim nathan law

    “oh it’s 3am i should go to bed, oh there’s an episode of guild cast up well it only guess for 40 minutes…” -me

  • http://twitter.com/thavleifrim nathan law

    I wasn’t banned for this snowflake thing, and until watching this i didn’t even know what the “snowflake exploit” was, but i can believe people not thinking this was an exploit, that’s what most mmo’s are, you do the same thing hundreds if not thousand’s of times and at the end you make a profit.

  • http://twitter.com/Gyciogala Gt

    You know what i see in wvw ? There are these 3-wheeled huge tank like machines in Black Citadel… (Reference to Wintergrasp, but those toys are uncomparable with the Charr ones ^.^)

  • http://twitter.com/lXxPOPSxXl Christopher Adams

    I think they need a new Guild cast host. As it is very clear he hates GW and is definitely A WoW nut. Hes just never ever happy when talking about GW2. And im getting tired of his attitude. And its not just me, a few of my friends and I have discussed this topic and have all agreed that we will stop watching this just because he is so blah and hateful. And really Gamers are A-holes? There ARE HUNDREDS OF OTHER THINGS ABOUT GW2 that you could have talked about but instead you wasted our time.

    • http://twitter.com/dularr Dularr

      I take it you haven’t watched the WoW show. Gary doesn’t play WoW anymore and every few episodes complains about the show notes and how long the episode will be. 

      • http://twitter.com/lXxPOPSxXl Christopher Adams

        No not really but the fact of the matter still remains there were hundred more things to talk about instead of wasting our time like that. I don’t like him personally and neither do alot of my friends. But if they are hurting for topics that bad, I would be interested in giving them some topics as well as joining in with more info if needed. I do in fact respect him, for him to be where he is now, but do not like him.

  • Ravenstorm

    Allright Gary. Just to be sure. Besides show hosting, you’re a big gamer, right?
    I see ya playing games with Mike and the Shaff. and such.
    That’s cool. You’re just a big effin mad hatter GAMER!

  • http://twitter.com/greggyv84 Gregory V

    There you go… all the douchebags that ruined the Trading Post by exploiting (duping, botting, hacking). Whatever it may be, they deserve to be punished. Still waiting for Anet to do something about the pricing on the TP, also. 

  • http://twitter.com/greggyv84 Gregory V

     Also getting bad lag spikes since the WD removal build… anyone else?

  • http://twitter.com/MiZTiiX MiZTiiX

    indeed they are

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TQUSPKFCCPPMBDGPKMFYL2THEM TRON

    this game fails on so many levels its a tyrannosaurus rex, Guild-wars 2 with out no guild halls ? Who hell should they fire on the dev team for that ? Dungeons are like taking your face to a brick wall, and story is stupid its geared towards 10 year olds. I dont see me given arena net another penny for a pile of manure expac.